I Want To Be One More
Posted by Matt Armstrong
August 5, 2008 at 9:18 p.m.
This is addressing the comment boards on Bethany Jones's latest blog entry, "I Want To Be One Less". Please read up on it [here][1] before continuing on. I am only addressing the comment board's notes, no one person in particular, their views, opinions, or choices as a parent. It may seem like I'm addressing this in a rather disconnected fashion, but I feel strongly enough about vaccination to publish my thoughts under my own banner, not Bethany's. But again, believe me, this won't make any sense if you don't read up over there. Head on over, I'll wait for you to get back.
Back already? Good, thanks for coming back.There's such a negative slant on anything medical being advertised these days. It's not propaganda, or Merck being an [evil giant][2] corporation (there's a lot more money in poisoning people than fighting infant blindness) when they advertise that they have an anti-HPV vaccine. Compare the [advertising for Gardasil][3], a vaccine, to the advertising for any number of medicines that don't even have to say what they treat, but do have to list their sometimes [terrifying side effects][4], or the abusively high number of broadcasts for Mucinex and any [handful of emotional manipulators][5]. The vaccine doesn't even compare.This isn't scaring people into getting protected against something they aren't at risk for. You know what I'm not at risk for? Smallpox, Measles, Diphtheria, Whooping Cough, Mumps, and Rubella. You know why? Because of a successful program of vaccinations. That's the real reason for vaccination, to steadily wipe out the disease by starving it out of the general population, not to protect each person individually.
In some areas of the world, diseases like polio had been nearly wiped out, only to have pretty major outbreaks when a segment of the population turned away from vaccination. This happened because the infection worked its way into that select group that chose to not "risk" vaccination for whatever reason. Great Britain thought pertussis disappeared and cut back on immunization in 1974. By 1978 there was an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases and 36 deaths. Same goes for Sweden and Japan. Diphtheria immunization fell with the break up of the Soviet Union. The number of cases rose from 839 in 1989 to nearly 50,000 in 1994, including 1,700 deaths, according to the WHO. In [Nigeria][6], the fear of vaccination came from the spreading rumor that the US was using the vaccine to sterilize Muslims, leading to a boycott. Naturally, outbreaks occured.Fear of vaccination is extremely risky behavior, because it weakens the protection of the group en masse. In the US, we have a great built in defense against that happening, being that vaccination is mandatory before children are allowed into schools.That sterilization rumor though, that's a pretty far out reason, right? But we've all heard plenty of similar stories from the anti-MMR people. It's so worrisome that parents are actively choosing to not vaccinate their children, and because of fear [instilled by people like Jenny McCarthy][7] trying to explain their child's autism. It's sad that parents all over our country have begun comfortably referring to the MMR as "the polio shot", still blaming the ethylmercury component of Thimerosal preservative in the vaccine (which isn't used in any childhood vaccines). There has [never been a link between vaccines and autism][8], ever (including the "[Leaky Gut][9]" theory, as hard as it is to believe). It's similar to the rumor that [living near power lines][10] caused mental handicaps and leukemia. It never got proved. What HAS been proven in the search for Autism causes, is our testing and detection methods. We've learned that Autism isn't just one sickness, you can be "more" or "less" autistic, it's a disorder. As we've learned to detect lesser cases, such as Asberger's Syndrome, the number of children effected has risen. Also, some health-care programs have provided an incentive to give children a diagnosis that is covered by insurance, and autism fits the bill, as opposed to other less severe conditions.Yes, some vaccines have later been shown to not have worked as well as thought. The old polio vaccine could on extremely rare occasion (1 in 750,000 est.) revert to virulent polio. The current polio vaccine does not carry this risk. Millions have been spared this tradgedy, but understandably that's a small consolation to the parents of a sick child. The swine flu vaccine caused an outbreak of Guillaine Barre syndrome (an inflammatory illness causing nerve damage) Today, the flu vaccine can make people achy, making one sick to prevent sickness. Risks like these are the crux of the anti-vaccine arguement. Let's put a little perspective on it though. Having a baby naturally, there's a 1 in 700 chance that your child will be born with a [cleft palate][11]. If Chavis and I were to get pregnant right now there would be a 1 in 1,250 chance of [Down Syndrome][12]. [Spina Bifida][13]; 1 in 3,000. Letting a child develop naturally puts it at higher risk than any post birth vaccination ever did. But again, that's a small comfort to a suffering parent.Looking at the record of outbreaks, and the scourges of disease that have killed millions in the past, the benefits of vaccination programs are immeasurable. We can't allow fear and rumor-mongering to control our future decisions regarding disease control. We simply can't afford to be on the wrong side of it.-m@ [1]: http://www.lawrence.com/blogs/bad_english_major/2008/aug/04/oneless/ [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu [3]: http://www.gardasil.com/i-chose-tv/ [4]: http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2007/10/every_day_at_least_one.php [5]: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/archives/pharmacy_qa/stopping_antidepressant_makes_brain_shiver.php [6]: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/10275.php [7]: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2007/09/jenny-mccarthy-.html [8]: http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Autism/tb/5660 [9]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7300327.stm [10]: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emf.html [11]: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Hare+lip [12]: http://www.babyhopes.com/articles/birthdefects.html [13]: http://www.americanpregnancy.org/birthdefects/spinabifida.html
Comments
matt 14 years, 9 months ago
hangs head in frustration and goes back to writing snark about video games
Bethany Jones 14 years, 9 months ago
Just wanted to add, before you think I'm a complete nutcase, that I do completely agree with you that children should be vaccinated. I'm always surprised when I meet people who tell me their kid isn't at risk for Tetanus, so they don't vaccinate for that. (Rusty nails at the park, anyone?)A great book to check out is Stephanie Cave's "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations." She debunks a lot of the myths surrounding many anti-vaccine advocates, while suggesting a slightly delayed (like, by one month) vaccination schedule for infants.Even though Polio is basically eradicated in America and like countries, it's still too nasty of a disease for me to not vaccinate my child for it, especially living in Hawai'i, which still has MANY third-world country characteristics. TB "goes around" in the schools here and my husband actually caught it from being coughed on last year, so I firmly believe in getting vaccines. I'm just not so sure about this ONE...but I'm always open to changing my mind.
alm77 14 years, 9 months ago
Love ya, Matt. You get a "B" for effort. ;)
gavon 14 years, 9 months ago
I should preface every comment I make about children with the caveat, "I really hope I'm sterile."Given the amount of radiation directed at my junk from cell phones in my pants and an ill understood compulsion to dry hump running microwaves, it's a safe bet.Better for the gene pool this way...
DOTDOT 14 years, 9 months ago
"@ DOTDOT: Why wouldn't all the data on Gardasil come from Merck?"This from a video game reviewer? Come on, man.Gavon: You know, we've never met, but I have always thought of you as a precious little vessel of cherubic perfection.
gavon 14 years, 9 months ago
Bravo, Matt. There is definitely an element of elitism/paranoia to the anti-vaccine crowd. It's the notion that getting a vaccination puts the "rube" into "rubella," or that "they" are going to transform your precious little vessel of cherubic perfection--who would never succumb to such poor people diseases, anyway--into some sort of Thalidomide cyborg that's going to start defecating money for Pfizer like it's an ATM with flipper arms (because dead babies, with the resultant lawsuits and irreparable press, are so profitable for corporations). I realize that no one on this site has ever gone that far, but I get the same vibe from the anti-vaccine crowd that I do from those militant vegans who recoil in horror and condescendingly "tsk" if you offer them honey (never minding that bees are enslaved and used to pollinate the fruits and vegetables they so piously eat).Sorry, but I'm just as put-off by vaccine conspiracists as I am by global warming deniers. It's all anti-science, as far as I'm concerned, and we've seen how well that works in everything from the EPA to the Kansas Board of Education.
leslie 14 years, 9 months ago
And: "I've started to notice that people who begin statements with "I'm not anti-vaccine, but..." are about to drop some anti vaccine rhetoric."I just don't understand why it's all or nothing.
smerdyakov 14 years, 9 months ago
alm77 14 years, 9 months ago
Oh, come on Gavon, I'm not saying you guys wouldn't be great dads someday, you're certainly smart and would have much to contribute to a little person's world view. There's a tendency for one's faith in the system to fade when science is putting needles (and preservatives and germs) into your own child, that's all. Every parent has to decide for their own children, and every woman has to decide for themselves when making the HPV decision. I just think they should be informed decisions. I want to know things like: How long has this product been on the market? Who has tested it? What are the risks (this is the one thing the FDA does right.)? Can I put this off until my child's system is more developed? why or why not?
alm77 14 years, 9 months ago
I'm feeling picked-on, despite your claims to the contrary, so here it goes:So, Matt, you have how many children? My point is, my kids are NOT going to be a test study. I"m fine with the old-school tried and true immunizations. I'm fine with the schedule for the first 12 months, I'm not okay with MMR as scheduled. I've chosen to delay it and I know way too many moms of autistic children who's story starts with a fever just after the MMR shot. It's one thing to "know it all" when you're reading studies done by the companies who stand to profit and the FDA that fails us all (and buying it hook, line and sinker). It's another thing to look at your own child and take even the slightest risk. I think there is a middle ground and I've done my best to find that, despite the opinions that I'm a paranoid elitist.
Will Babbit 14 years, 9 months ago
sits back with popcorn to watch the action
leslie 14 years, 9 months ago
alm77 and DOTDOT: yes. Thanks for saying it so eloquently.Matt & Gavon: A parent that doesn't at least question the injections coming at their kids ain't much of a parent. And until you've been in a doctor's office watching your child get a series of shots you've approved, and then learned she just got a shot you DID NOT approve (as happened with my daughter and the chicken pox vaccination), you're not going to understand how shamelessly the medical industry undermines parents' rights.This was the same doctor's office that lectured me about my son's BMI numbers, and then 20 minutes later handed him a McDonald's gift certificate for being good. Which goes to show how truly engaged they are in the health of my kids. Be careful who you trust.And Gavon: "precious little vessel of cherubic perfection"? Goodness, it's a runaway train now.
Bethany Jones 14 years, 9 months ago
You may want to get some of your facts straight, friend. "the ethylmercury component of Thimerosal preservative in the vaccine (which isn't used in any childhood vaccines)" Actually, Thimerosal is still used in many childhood vaccines, according to the CDC. (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-1.pdf)Also, there was a study done in May that showed autism-like symptoms in monkeys who had all the suggested childhood shots on time. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/107993.phpSo there HAVE been studies done that show there may be a connection, but at this point we simply don't know.The difference between the HPV vaccine and the Polio vaccine is that Polio is airborne. HPV is contracted by sexual contact - so if someone is in a monogamous relationship or is NOT sexually active at all (meaning engaging in any form of sexual behavior, not just intercourse) they aren't at risk. So why try to push a shot on people that they AREN'T at risk for?
DOTDOT 14 years, 9 months ago
Yeah, and I'm just as put of by pharmaceutical marketing machine deniers as I am by global warming conspirators.My research is about a year old and from the time Merck was seeking mandatory vaccination for middle school girls. $360 a pop. I had to look long and hard to find data that wasn't generated by Merck of affiliated parties. The cynicism of this prong of the sales campaign for Gardasil was so thinly veiled that no reasonable person could concede it the title of conspiracy. It was just a fucking hustle. I've seen playground crack dealers with more intelligence and integrity.I'm not saying we won't vaccinate. But I will be taking a goddamn fire hose to the shitwall of propaganda before any needle gets within a three foot perimeter of my daughter.Serious independently funded studies. Where are they?
lori 14 years, 9 months ago
I'm a nurse, and I even give (and sometimes recommend!) immunizations on a regular basis. Have my two daughters had the gardasil vaccine? Nope. Will they? Probably, but not at age 9, and certainly not because it is mandated by the state of Kansas for school enrollment, as was considered at one time, with of course huge backing from Merck.I've been researching it for over a year now, and I'm still on the fence about when it should be given. I'd also like to see more data on some of the negative side effects/adverse reactions, which is difficult to obtain for someone not directly involved with it, apparently.Did you know that many physicians are paying out of pocket to have their sons receive this vaccine? Did you know that the second leading cause of oropharyngeal cancer is HPV? What do you think one of the main causes of anal and penile cancers is? Why is Merck not marketing this to men as well as women? Why is it not trying to get states to require this for school age boys as well as girls? Why do so many girls faint when it is given? I've given lots of injections to girls (hello depo!)--I never had anyone faint. It's not just that teenage girls faint, it appears to be that particular injection is to blame. But I can't really find any data to look at regarding this one way or another.
matt 14 years, 9 months ago
The studying between infant primates is interesting, we have to note that it isn't conclusive in either direction. It's worded badly, drawing unproved parallels, and flirts with trying to fit data to a desired result. Even in the article the director of Safeminds points out that the results call for more research. The key to their findings is what I bring up in the article. It's not Autism. It's Autism Spectrum Disorder, and cases jumped in the 1990's because that when we defined it. That being said, the findings are interesting enough to continue research, until something conclusive has been shown, through repeatable, hierarchical testing. You know, that science thing that seems to get left out of the argument. In the meantime, the risks of letting up on vaccinations carries too large of a risk. @ DOTDOT: Why wouldn't all the data on Gardasil come from Merck?
Bethany Jones 14 years, 9 months ago
Smerky - my husband hates the flu shot for the same reason. He had never gotten the flu until he joined the military and was required by law each year to be vaccinated for it. Now each November he goes in and gets the shot, then comes home all diseased and ill. It's a huge pain.
lori 14 years, 9 months ago
I'm another person who annoys those by saying, "I'm not anti immunization, but...." Because it's my kid, and what I say is right for my child should still trump what the state of Kansas or anyone else says what may be right for my child. You act like we should just bend over and take whatever the medical community wants to shove up our ass. We should never question what medication or therapy or test our physician recommends? Not when it comes to ourselves or our children?I did my own research, and came to the conclusion that, especially for my somewhat chronically ill second child, the standard immunization schedule was NOT going to work for us. I don't know why autism (or, if it pleases you, Autism Spectrum Disorder) seems to rear its ugly head so soon after certain immunizations. But I know that research is now working on the genetic level; we are slowly figuring out the genetics involved in all aspects of medicine. Like why one person responds to a medication well, and another who should doesn't. I've got a kid who, if exposed to something, gets it. She seemed to get dumped on, in the genetics and immune response department. There was no way I was going to stress her already fragile system by loading her up with multiple immunizations at a young age. And yet the health department and my physician argued and argued with me. First it was, no, just because she was premature isn't reason to delay immunizations. Then it changed to no, just because she appears to have chronic health issues, some of which we aren't sure exactly what they are yet, isn't any reason to delay immunizations. Then it was no, just because she is being tentatively diagnosed at age three with failure to thrive and run through a battery of tests to determine exactly what is wrong with her, that STILL isn't a reason to delay any immunizations. Oh, wait, all our tests are coming up negative. We don't know why she's so sick and hasn't gained any weight in a year. But that is no reason not to immunize her. Well, I'm her parent, and I call bullshit. She was immunized according to my schedule--one injection at a time, finish that series slowly before starting another.And then, after she had finally, in the second grade, completed all her "required" immunizations, she, my fully immunized older daughter, and my fully immunized husband all contracted pertussis. Lurvely
DOTDOT 14 years, 9 months ago
Actually, no insult intended. It's a runaway habit for sure, so no foul for the assumption. We should exchange resumes so I don't make the same mistake again.My sideways point was that everything we consume is vetted by independent sources. Music (how bout that Robert Plant and Alison Krauss), art, video games, celebrities, political candidates, etc.,etc.. ad nauseum infinitum. Why accept less from pharmaceuticals in the form of exclusive data on a vaccine from the very same company that will profit from it? Why does this seem so clear to me?11: Jesus back to ya. You seen ma belly.
matt 14 years, 9 months ago
Huh, I don't remember video game reviewer being on my last pay check. If I have been supposed to writing reviews, I have been asleep at the wheel. But thanks for the sideways insult anyways, you bring up a good point.
OtherJoel 14 years, 9 months ago
"Even in the article the director of Safeminds points out that the results call for more research."All other arguments aside, that's boilerplate language used by any responsible researcher -- it isn't really a valid criticism. Research never "proves" anything. It adds to the body of knowledge. It's a never-ending process. You never confirm a hypothesis; you fail to reject it. There are always changing circumstances and unforeseen variables that may nullify previous findings. And through the process of contradictory findings, ideally we should be advancing knowledge, not arresting it based on one study or even ten studies.Anyway, you always get to a point where good old-fashioned judgment comes in. You weigh the risks and go from there, just like you do with anything. Of course, doing your homework often helps your odds (and you all are, obviously), but in the end, you have to make the call.Oh, and the "badly-worded" part: are you referring to the press release on Bethie's link? Those things always sound idiotic. Scientific findings rarely fit well with sound bite-ready PR language (by an organization that did not actually conduct the study). I didn't see the actual report written by the researchers themselves. I would think/hope that would probably be a better-written (albeit long-winded and boring) explanation. Sorry for the digression -- research geek's pet peeve. That said, the monkey study may very well be garbage, but I didn't see enough there to form a strong opinion either way.Regarding this specific issue, the conclusion I've reached is that I don't envy parents for having to make these kinds of decisions. I'm helpful, I know.End cranky, non-constructive rant.
TheEleventhStephanie 14 years, 9 months ago
Jesus people. Just because he reviews games too doesn't mean he can't have an opinion or a discussion about something else.
DOTDOT 14 years, 9 months ago
Will: heh, heh. Actually there ARE days when I'm such a girl.
Will Babbit 14 years, 9 months ago
Though in DOTDOT's defense, I took it her comment to mean that believing that all the data on a product should come from the producer is false, given that most information released about video games from the producer themselves is extremely biased (see Alone in the Dark for an example). Not necessarily meant as a slight against Matt. Though I could be completely mistaken...
alm77 14 years, 9 months ago
I didn't say he had to have kids to have an opinion, I just said his opinion doesn't count until he does. ;) First rule of parenting: Don't take advice from people who aren't parents.
Will Babbit 14 years, 9 months ago
Don't forget he's not allowed to have an opinion unless he has kids...
alm77 14 years, 9 months ago
Hell, yeah, I got Dots on my side, bitches!!Oh, and I decided that you can call me "paranoid" if I can call you "naive" and that pretty much settles it.
alm77 14 years, 9 months ago
"Doesn't it also follow that you shouldn't take medical advice from people who aren't doctors, or legal advice from people who aren't lawyers?" Yup. But let's not forget, medical professionals used to claim that washing your hands before surgery didn't cause less infection, or that forceps during child birth were a necessity, or well, you get the picture. The medical professions are slow to change and especially slow to admit they may be, possibly, slightly, a bit, incorrect. There are doctors (and nurses like Lori) who admit that the current immunization scheduled is possibly flawed. So, there is still a balancing act of a) parental instinct, while taking into account all the information available including experiences that can't be argued with and b) following the medical advice of an intelligent professional. Note, I didn't say I would take EVERY parent's advice. Rule #2 of parenting: Don't take advice from those who parent poorly. Neither should you take every doctor's advice. And when you're old and crotchety like me, you'll discover that professional medical advice varies widely (and wildly) from professional to professional. Oh, and you can tell the mom across the street who is currently dealing with a possibly autistic child that she's paranoid. Good luck with that.
pistachio 14 years, 9 months ago
alm77: Doesn't it also follow that you shouldn't take medical advice from people who aren't doctors, or legal advice from people who aren't lawyers?As a non-parent whose opinion doesn't count (that's a JOKE, no need to redefend youself), I must say this discussion scares the crap out of me. I only hope that when I become a mother, my natural drive to protect my young 'uns from anything and everything won't also make me question medical advice from someone with an M.D. who has no reason to swindle me into a cheap vaccine that insurance pays for anyway. I've already instructed my friends (which include Matt and the illustrious Gavon) to let me know if/when I start the Paranoid Mommy Talk.
liz 14 years, 9 months ago
My experience is that many M.D.'s do not keep up on current research once they get their letters. I also find that they rely pretty heavily on the information fed to them by pharmaceutical reps. I don't believe that doctors are trying to "swindle" patients, but I do think that some may be too overworked/lazy/complacent/ brainwashed to seek and provide complete information that is applicable and appropriate to each and every individual they see each day.If you feel comfortable taking doctors' opinion at face value simply because they have "M.D." after their name, you do so at your own risk. Any good doctor encourages patients to seek second and third opinions. Seeking additional information does not make one paranoid. Neglecting to do so, in my opinion, is wreckless. Somehow I suspect that if this discussion were on cancer treatment instead of vaccines that we would all be in agreement.
DOTDOT 14 years, 9 months ago
There are wackos in every ideology. Some of them have kids, and some of them don't. ALM is right. No matter where you fall, it's a question of judgment.Now, Mercks expert legal and marketing departments flubbed with the Gardasil campaign. My advice to those without kids: don't have them until you understand how and why. Writing off every question aimed at the professional medical community as "Mommy Paranoia" (sexism aside) is an abdication of responsibility, shows a lack of basic judgment, and disqualifies you for parenthood. Trust your instincts. And - if applicable - your radiactive junk.
bloozman 14 years, 9 months ago
Someboody call for take-out.http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1831405,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner
edog 14 years, 9 months ago
anybody seen pineapple express yet?
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