Lawrence.com

I love you Misty. And you suck. Just how you suck I'm still trying to figure out. Just in general.

Did that help? It wasn't really heartfelt.

I will email you some sites/people.

Misty--

You've got real chops. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that criticism--even informed criticism--will make the writing process any easier. (Good criticism makes it harder.)

Best advice I've ever heard is from Ray Bradbury, who delivers this lecture at writing conferences. First, finish the piece. (That stops about 50 percent of all writers right there.) Really truly finish it. Then throw it in a closet for at least two weeks (a month is better) and don't think about it. Then open it up and give it a fresh read w/ fresh eyes. Bradbury said that whatever reads pretty well after that cooling-off period is probably good stuff, and everything that reads iffy just sucks and has to go.

After you've fixed the stuff that you yrself realize is weak, back into the closet w/ it for another two weeks. If it then reads reasonably well, yr ready to turn the child over to the Inquisition of yr choice.

Writing groups and communal criticism can be extremely helpful, but (imo) only for finished work. If you let the gang in to chop up a work-in-progress, well, of course that's what they'll do, and in my experience that isn't always helpful.

This is Jack's (oops, Misty's) lack of confidence.

Sorry. Awful "Fight Club" reference.

Great. Thanks. Now I have a pain in my side, from laughing at the "asshole with teeth" line. (But really, that might prove to be helpful in prison.... so is the moral that anything CAN be helpful under the right conditions??).

I hope you find the help, agent, and audience of your dreams. And that they all result in you becoming well off, if not down right rich. Mainly I hope these things because I think you deserve them, but also because I want the baby to have siblings soon!

Misty,

Me, I'm a reader not a critic, so all I can do is tell you that I like reading your work, and look forward to more.

I joined a songwriting group back in the day, and had about the same (Wow, that sounds like Foreigner (Fuck you very much)) luck. It's a cycle. Don't let it drag you down.

Whats wrong with the pace? I mean it wasn't really that long ago that you didn't even have the memoir written, right? Seems like you're kicking ass from where I'm standing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't need to hear that either, but here's what I'm saying. You're standing at the amatuer/pro divide. It's supposed to be difficult. If it wasn't, they wouldn't need you. So hang in there, and keep pushing. Just remember, I'm out here wanting to buy your book. And figure out how to blog an autograph.

I'm interested in your "writing group" and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

You met Chuck. Color me J-E-A-L-O-U-S!

Wow. Everybody else had much better suggestions than the ones I was going to email you. LOL

On a completely different note- who's going to the band concert tonight in South Park? If you are going, come sit by me. We'll be over by the jugglers, maybe with our dog. I'll be knitting.

Misty,

More. Active. Verbs. Less. Vague. Prounouns.

Nary an "is" (or any other weak verb) should mar your page. It, This, There, etc., should be excised at all costs

Methinks Chandler said best, "Writing should be lean, racy and vivid."

Best of luck. Luce

If only Chandler actually wrote that way...

Hammett is the Man.

The world would be a better place if you went back to school and TAUGHT a creative writing class.

Don't mind me. I'm just kissin ass. I'm glad you straightened me out on the picture. I was all like damn she's got big hands.

And don't start sentences with "and".

Wow! Thanks for the link to chuckpalahniuk.net. The 13 tips were great. Don't quit. Here's two more sources of advice worth checking out. You may have already seen these books:

Immediate Fiction by Jerry Cleaver http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/031228716X/002-4880056-2479219?v=glance&n=283155

In spite of his overuse of the term "the craft", this book is a great way to boil down the writing process into chunks you can use to jump-start a new story, or rewrite something. Read it. You won't be sorry.

and:

The Art of Fiction by John Gardner http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679734031/002-4880056-2479219?v=glance&n=283155

This is a bit high-handed at times, but the advice is dead-on. It's an essential reference.

I must defend Deborah Shouse. She's a good writer IMO. Perhaps not quite your style and perhaps not so good at choosing photos to use for pumping her writing. Kinda looks like an adv. for a christian swingers club, doesn't it. Still, I think I could learn a few things from her. Did she critique your work?

Hey, speaking of photos, the old flippin' off the camera photo ain't all that great either. Peruse the party pic album from any KU frat party and you'll see what I mean. Hacky!

Fowler--my flippin' off the camera bit was in direct response to my old blog logo being pulled because some dried up old bitch got offended, and because some members of the JW staff pussed out on the issue. It wasn't meant to make me look "cool"; it was a pointed fuck-you to some very specific people. Besides, I put it up to a vote---I wanted the pastel Goatse rendering ;)

I don't know Deborah Shouse, I'm sure she's a great writer and a good teacher--I just saw that picture and went, "yeah. I seriously doubt they want to read my writing, much less critique it." Hell, that's my problem with most online critique groups, too--my subject matter is too raw for the vast majority of people to even read all the way through, much less give an honest critique of it. And I don't need "inspiration" to write, or "permission to unleash my creativity", which seems to be what they're schilling, at least based on the web page I saw. So although I'm sure she's a hell of a teacher, I don't think she and her partner are my cup of tea, nor I theirs.

And thanks very much for the links--I'll certainly be checking them out after I get the munchkin to bed tonight.

"Taken 3 college creative writing classes, starting in 7th grade. I'm not suffering through that hell yet again ;)"

Well, the English major curriculum is going to push you to be a good writer. If you want someone who knows how to WRITE to critique your work, English professors are a great place to start.

I'll join the writing group.

Can Rob and I bring drinks?

"Wait, aren't most English profs just failed writers to begin with?"

Guess it depends on which college you go to, eh? At UH every professor has at least written their own textbook, and most of them have several other publications out, as well. Not sure how it is at KU, but I had some great professors while I was there who were more than happy to help me with my writing. If you want to be the best, you have to work with the best, which usually means they've had something published. That's why internet critique groups aren't always the way to go.

Jester---you're on, and oh, hell yes you can. Email me.

Bethie--my experience with English professors has been pretty much exactly that. Not so much that they're "failed" writers, more that they've spent so long cramming their heads with theory and form and grammar and comparison and analysis that they've smothered any raw creative impulse they once had. And they refuse to accept that any work that doesn't contain at least three different levels of subtext and allegory and wry homage to obscure writers can actually be good. In other words, they think the shit to death. If I ever go back to school, it's not going to be as an English major--I enjoy reading books for fun, even dumb books, and I'm not going to have that spoiled for me. thetom. . . seriously, I'm blushing.

I thought it worked like this: you write something, take it to a publisher, they like it, and assign an editor to fix things. Or you find an editor yourself and pay them (or promise to pay on publication.)

Submit, reject, submit again, reject again, submit again, reject... and then one day: accepted!

Link to your website, and put up a PayPal donations button.

What you describe in the way of teacher versus practioner applies to a lot of professions. E.g. Theater. Most paid actors, movie or stage, do not teach their craft (at least not at the college/university level). And most teachers of acting do not get paid to act (unless you include the occasional equity gig for some community theater group). The same scenario plays out in many areas; law, engineering, journalism, etc.

Sometimes it works out that way b/c they tried going paid pro, and failed. Sometimes the teacher ends up teaching b/c they really prefer that to making their living any other way.

Either way, it is really a different skill set - teaching and doing.

But, I agree with Misty on how some teachers can end up ruining a talent by trying to ritualize how it is exercised. All too often, those who teach would have loved to made their living doing their chosen genre, but for a variety of reasons (like of talent, lack of drive, lack of luck) they didn't get to do so. So they become bitter stuck up snobs who try (perhaps without knowing that is their goal) to ruin the chances of anyone else's making it to where they could not go.

However, SOME really good teachers could have and/or actually did make a living doing the deed - they just happen to also have a talent (and desire) to pass along the wisdom. Alas, those types of teachers are pretty rare.

As for becoming a sucess (read - getting paid) to do anything - I think it takes a combination of the following, in no particular order:

(1) Talent (ability), (2) desire, (3) hard work, (4) time and (5) LUCK!

I think the first item (talent/ability) is far less important then the other items... Many "hacks" end up making a living while those with more talent flounder. Why? Because of one of the other 4 items not being around....

Thus, back to teachers who did not succeed at making their living in the field, this explains why some talented people end up teaching others how to give it a whirl professionally.... You can't assume you will "be discovered" just because you are talented or want it bad. You have to work at your craft, whatever it is, AND do all you can to "self-market".

And hope/pray that someone who can open doors will do so. If you keep knocking you may just eventually knock on the right one. Luck, in the end, plays a big part in being a commercial sucess.

Misty, I would also be interested in a cool, fun, productive yet informal (read: relaxed but brutally honest) writers' group.

I've been sitting on a manuscript for years now, and as a result, much needs to be re-written -- but it's something that I started in college in the sort of upper-level creative writing classes BadEnglishMajor described.

The kind in which I was fortunate enough to have the amazing and rare kind of teacher ladylaw referred to.

The kind that gave a lowly junior with lots of ambition as a writer the chance to work with graduate-students in just the kind of scenario you're looking for -- where we got to write and help revise each others' full-fledged novels over the course of a semester.

Man, when the school-thing works, it really works... it just all depends on the teachers AND the students involved.

But more to the point, there's absolutely no reason why such a group couldn't be replicated on our own... so long as it stays on point, and the IDEA doesn't get lost in a haze of ego.

You don't know me, but Jester and Scary do. So maybe they'd vouch for me. And yeah, it would be a whole lotta fun -- not to mention the fact that it might also yield the kind of motivation I've been needing to finish this damn book.

Count me in... if you'll have me.

PS -- I'll bring the beer. I'm making some more Scottish Ale this week, Jester. Give it about 3 weeks, and we can all come over and tap a keg and read each others' stuff.

your_mileage---about two months ago I had a conversation with my husband that went something like this.

"Honey! Holy shit! Look at this!! I'm a real writer now! It's fucking official!"

"What, did an agent get back to you? Do they want to see your manuscript?"

"No, but I got my first rejection form-letter! I can now call myself a real writer, and no one can cry 'bullshit!'"

What I'm looking for is writers who can relate to not only my style and subject matter, but my current situation as a writer--i.e., one who writes when she has the chance, not one who writes because that's what the loans are paying for and the grade is depending on--an informal critique group of adults. A group of people who are writers when they're not bartenders or moms or roofers, a group of people who are as unwilling as me to put their work in front of a teenaged girl who's never written anything that wasn't an assignment, much less who's never gotten puking drunk and woken up in bed next to someone whose name she can't remember, and expect to get useful feedback that goes beyond catching spelling errors. Not a class with a teacher, not a seminar on showing-not-telling, not a circle-jerk of "oooh, that poem really made me feel how painful it is to realize that you never told your dad how much you cared".

My creative-writing class experience has shown me that the vast majority of the critiques you're going to get are from your fellow students---and forgive me if I'm being arrogant, here, but I don't see how a class that's half-full of folks taking the "easy credit" option and half-full of eager teenagers clutching notebooks full of angst-poetry are going to be able to give me much that I find terribly useful. And I hate to say it, but I haven't the time or the inclination to spend hours each week trying to gently and diplomatically give constructive criticism on a dozen ten-page descriptions of high-school breakups and ensuing suicide attempts. To be perfectly, brutally, bitchily conceited, I am so far beyond the Creative Writing 101 level that they should pay me to sit in that class. I know that the upper-level and graduate writing classes aren't like that, but as renae pointed out, they don't let you take those unless you're enrolled in that major, and folks--I'M LOOKING TO POLISH A FUCKING MANUSCRIPT, NOT GO BACK TO SCHOOL.. And creative writing classes do require that you do a lot of reading, mostly the aforementioned adolescent shit-fests, which is infinitely more painful that slogging through even the most obtuse Edwardian comedy of manners.

No, you're wrong, Misty. What you really NEED TO DO is magically pull the thousands of dollars in tuition money out of you ass and get back to school, because you obviously have an unlimited supply of time and energy. I don't know if you're aware of this, but there isn't a single author in history who has gone on to forward our understanding of the written word without first graduating from the university of his/her choice... How can you possibly hope to translate your life experiences if you don't pound them into a rigid and antiquated grammatical structure? You must be insane.

And, of course, Bethie would be the voice of authority on these matters, since she's a 20-year-old homemaker with a mountain of published works under her belt... Or maybe I'm just making up that second part to be an asshole. It happens sometimes, you know.

Nay-sayers aside (not that there really are any we'd listen to anyway), I agree wholeheartedly with edie_. Even if my career (or the many other things that claim so much of my attention) kept me from actively participating in such a group, I'd be thrilled to know it EXISTED. If for no other reason than to have that knowledge in the back of my head somewhere, like a little shard of glass, prodding me to find the time. Besides, what a great way to spend a weeknight.

Do it mitzibel... make something happen... do it for all of us.

And no, you don't have to be our fearless leader -- but SOMEBODY is going to have to take point and organize something if it's ever going to happen. It sounds like the kind of thing I'd do, but I'm too fuckin' busy. Showing UP, however, I can definitely throw my weight behind -- once I've had a chance to dust off and re-evaluate this damn novel of mine and scrap the 30% of it that's shown up in other books and movies in the seven years since I started it... sigh Oh well, I guess that means I'm on the right track.

"And, of course, Bethie would be the voice of authority on these matters, since she's a 20-year-old homemaker with a mountain of published works under her belt... Or maybe I'm just making up that second part to be an asshole. It happens sometimes, you know."

Woah woah woah, first of all I'm 18 and I'm not a homemaker. I have two jobs, thankyouverymuch and I have a year left of college to finish my double Chinese & English majors, so obviously I'm not quite as idiotic as you think I am. And yes, I've had stuff published. I'm not the one who said Misty should go back to school full time and get a degree. I said maybe taking a creative writing class would be helpful - that's all - I never said she should get a degree. So calm down :P

Oh, and edie_ ... yes, yes you can drink whiskey in class. For some classes, it's almost a pre-req.

For others, you just have to be a little bit sly. Flasks are a dead give-away.

I have to say, despite the fact that I didn't have the energy to read every post made over the weekend - the best way to become a better writer is to write. And yes, you do need a person who's outside your head and process to look it over and let you know how well you translated your thoughts to the masses who may one day read it. I think school is a great thing, but I don't think you learn any kind of art by sitting in a classroom or studio. You learn by doing and finding out how it works for you.

I'm saying this as a person who took years to realize that my interest in and facility with words didn't naturally lead to being a fiction writer. I have found that I enjoy non-fiction writing and editing the work of others far more than I enjoy churning out more words every day.

Ah, boo, you just love Penny because she helps you piss off racists and old people ;) And because she has your frown.

It's still Terry's fault she knows how to say "oh, shit!", though.

Misty,

I would love to be part of a writing group. BTW, we met at the end of NaNo last November at Molly McGee's for dinner (we were the only two to show up, cuz we're cool, and everyone else isn't).

I've been re-outlining my manuscript, and I think I really might have it right this time, but a writing group would make the process more interesting/fun. As synapsis put it: "Relaxed but brutally honest" would be great.

As far as organizing is concerned: I'm down to be point man if you need the help.

-Ted