Posted
by Patrick Quinn
February 11, 2005 at 9:25 a.m.
NeoAmerican Pigs: "Extraordinary rendition"
The Republican Party must be delighted beyond words: Our swinish, satanic government has sunk to the level of the USSR, Burma, Iran and North Korea.Let's hear it for extraordinary rendition."Extraordinary rendition" is what the torture monkeys call our national policy of kidnapping innocents, transporting them to outposts of freedom like Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Jordan, and torturing them. Bob Herbert's [column][1] in today's New York Times discusses just one of what must be hundreds--perhaps thousands--of cases of innocent people being swept up into "freedom's march," their humanity (and incidentally their human rights) sacrificed on the altar of the Bush Administration's cynical, phony "war on terror."Herbert recounts the case of Maher Arar, a 34-year-old Canadian, an immigrant from Syria, who was kidnapped by American fascists at Kennedy Airport in September 2002, transported to Syria and tortured for more than a year because he "was reported to have been a co-worker of a man in Canada whose brother was a suspected terrorist." This horrific case is discussed in the latest issue of that well-known terrorist mouthpiece New Yorker. The Syrians got their confession, of course--torture swine always do. Arar eventually confessed to whatever they wanted him to confess to. But the Syrian torturers reported back to the evil minions of George W. Bush--President ibn-Klink--and the loathsome Albert Gonzales that the confession was worthless. Arar wasn't a terrorist. He's back in Canada now, free to contemplate the subtleties of ibn-Klink's State of the Union message.Herbert observes:"Our henchmen in places like Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Uzbekistan and Jordan are torturing terror suspects at the behest of a nation - the United States - that just went through a national election in which the issue of moral values was supposed to have been decisive. How in the world did we become a country in which gays' getting married is considered an abomination, but torture is O.K.?"The pigs who kidnapped Arar called themselves the "Special Removal Unit."Extraordinary rendition.Herbert again:"Any government that commits, condones, promotes or fosters torture is a malignant force in the world. And those who refuse to raise their voices against something as clearly evil as torture are enablers, if not collaborators."The American people are gutless, immoral morons. Our government is a blight upon the world.Get out while you still can. There will be American citizens in the camps by the end of the year--if there aren't already. [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/11/opinion/11herbert.html?hp
Comments
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mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says…
Thanks, Quinn. I was having a lovely day, with enough sun and wind to make me forget about damn near everything, and here you are throwing icky reality in my face. Great. Why couldn't you do a piece on thong legislation, instead?
*Seriously, this is great, as usual. Intelligent rabble-rousing at its best.
quinn (Patrick Quinn) says…
My pleasure.
Tell me, what is this "sun" you speak of?
lazz (anonymous) says…
It's that big burning orb no longer invited to cast its aspersions upon the self-evidently righteous activities of our hell-of-a-lot-holier-than-thous elected officials, from Topeka to DC and every whistlestop in between.
Todd (anonymous) says…
It's not that Americans are gutless or immoral it's that as people they are extremely selfish. Every issue comes down to "how does it effect me?" For the most part issues of the world don't effect anyone in suburban America. Drive car, sit at desk, shop, eat processed food, ... over and over. Every city, job, person, and life churning on with mundane regularity.
Also, torture has been used throughout history by all nations. Europe was built on it and so was/is America.
To loosely quote 'A Few Good Men' here,
"...I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
path (anonymous) says…
Patrick - I'm curious if you have any realistic suggestions for alternative strategies for keeping US citizens in populations like NYC and LA safe?
loc_kaw (anonymous) says…
Here are some long and short term strategies; first the short term: pass a legislation on securing our chemical and nuclear plants--you know the ones that Bush and our republican congress won't fund security for; indeed, our government's current addiction to corporate welfare could be our real achille's heal when it comes to terrorist attacks. Second, stop committing terrorist acts: i.e., torturing Arab civillians, invading Iraq, deliberately bombing civillians, overthrowing democratically elected leaders like the one in Iran 50+ years ago (just as the most obvious example out of about 50).
Now the long term: Create a plan for energy independence, which would include developing hydrogen, solar and wind technology. This would help reverse the damage we've done to the enviornment, create jobs and dramtaically transform our relationship with oil producing Arab nations, and in turn change their relationships with their citizens (the biggest danger for us is if there's another fundamentalist take over in, oh say, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan). Fourth, legislate the creation of a cultural exchange with Muslim nations. Our fellow citizens need to learn about what goes on in their world and vice versa. More than anything, get bush and all of his minions out of office. So that we can go back to a diplomacy that has at least a little bit of sanity and common sense.
But, as Quinn stated about a month or so ago, we're about as safe as a nation state of our stature will ever be. The war on terrorism, like many aspects of the cold war, is a hoax that our leaders, their advisors, their think tanks and we have enthralled itself with--because it's such a seductive narrative. Ya know good versus evil, us enveloped with endorphins that transcribe a very uneducated semblance of patriotism in our brains, what I refer to as "moral narcissism". Unfortunately no one in opposition to the Republicans has offered up a vision as equally compelling to the non-rational American, as Bush's. As cliche as it sounds --with it's homage to Napoleon, the Imperial Soviet union, with its messianic goal of spreading democracy to the world-- Americans just can't seem to stop feeling good and righteous about it.
davidryan (David Ryan) says…
Does the question whether PQ has "realistic suggestions for alternative strategies for keeping US citizens in populations like NYC and LA safe?" presume that what happened to Arar is a "realistic" means of "keeping US citizens in populations like NYC and LA safe?"
I'm curious, path, whether your avoidance of any discussion of the outrageous behaviour our government has engaged in against a wholly innocent person, and your changing the subject to PQ's suggestions, if he has any, suggests that you're OK with the rights guaranteed by law and the Constitution being wholly trammled.
Are you loyal to the Constitution and to the laws of our land or not?
I'm sure there are many Americans who believe, with Ed Meese, that if you're arrested for something, you're probably guilty; so they aren't really troubled by cases like Arar's.
What happens, though, path, when it happens to you or someone you know?
There's nothing keeping you from being caught up in the dragnet, either, path. A similar sounding name, being in the wrong place at the wrong time: and you're in Syria, path, and no one knows where you are or how you're being tortured for information you don't even have.
That's why there's all thost limits on prosecutorial power in the Constitution. Unlike our American Idol citizenry, the writers of the Constitution knew that the only real way to ensure the freedoms and rights of the innocent is to protect the rights of the accused.
Because without protecting the rights of the accused, and without a strong check on prosecutorial power, it doesn't matter if you're innocent: they'll sieze you, deprive you of due process and torture you any way.
vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…
Ah... the "war on terror". Reminds me of the "war on drugs". Man we kicked ass on that one, huh?
As much as I hate to say it, something IS working for us though. When was the last terror attack committed on U.S. soil? Sept 11- since then all other terror attacks have been against "soft" targets in the Middle East, Spain and Indonesia. Apparently committing terror acts in the U.S. has been too hard or the terrorists would definately be attacking us here.
Smashing Al Qaeda is justified... invading Iraq is not, IMO. If torturing terrorists (or suspects with a high probability of being terrorists or terrorist enablers) is keeping U.S. citizens on U.S. soil safe, then as much as it sickens me I'm kinda glad it's happening. Sad but true.
quinno (Patrick Quinn) says…
"Also, torture has been used throughout history by all nations. Europe was built on it and so was/is America."
Jeez... I guess that makes it OK. Imbecile.
"I'm curious if you have any realistic suggestions for alternative strategies for keeping US citizens in populations like NYC and LA safe?".
1. Torturing innocent people in Yemen does nothing to keep people in the US "safe."
2. The terror "threat" that's keeping the pliers in your hand is nonexistent. How many attacks in the US last month? Last year? Since 911? If you believe that torturing innocent people has "prevented" attacks from "terrorists," go back to your Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and vote Republican for the rest of your life. The "war on terror", as waged by the Bush Adinistration, is a cynical fraud. Morons believe. The enlightened do not. Pick a side.
Here's my alternative strategy: Kill Osama bin Laden. Imprison George W. Bush, Dick "Halliburton" Cheney and the vile Albert "It's All Good--Who Has My Pliers?" Gonzales. Restore constitutional government and live like free people in a dangerous world.
3. History cleanly divides the nations of the world into two groups: Those that murder and torture people in concentration camps. Those that don't. That might not be in your comic books.
Get new comic books, you cowardly suburban assholes.
path (anonymous) says…
first - i'm new to this "blogging" - if that's the correct term - but i enjoy very much the straight-on discussion. and i'm hoping you all will forgive my etiquette or grammatic mistakes - as i learn my way around.
second - no matter how vehemently i disagree with your positions - or the perspective you advance'm from - i respect you and appreciate you taking time to challenge my thought processes. I'll never believe I'm 100% correct - & I'll never believe you are 100% correct - but I'm searching for the truth. I'll never challenge your positions to insult you. Challanging your postions is the best way for me to forge and refine my own opinions.
loc_kaw - its difficult for me to respond to your message - because it is filled with so much spoon-fed rhetoric. It's obvious my simple request that Patrick suggest an alternative strategy for protecting US citizens touched a nerve with you. I realize the Dems just selected Howard Dean as their national leader - so I guess for the next few days i can forgive any reflexive liberal responses!!! Although I'd be interested in knowing where you get your news! Hopefully, its from a more objective source than the NYT - which Patrick is willing to rely on.
davidryan - very insightful. you're right.
let me say that - i - as much as anyone - am grateful for the protections afforded by the US Constitution!
i'm also grateful for the personal security the federal government (which I believe is the original fundamental function of our federal government) provides. This is the basis for my question to "PQ".
I'd never advocate the kidnapping and torture of an innocent person. What sane person would? my point is this!!
Thousands of Americans are at risk of death in Iraq (fortunately you and i aren't among them). Americans died when terroists attacked the World Trade Center in 1995 and again on 9-11, when terroists attacked the Pentagon, and tried to attack D.C. but crashed in a field in Pennsylvania. What's offensive is that "PQ" and a lot of other "Americans" are willing to use words like "Our swinish, satanic government has sunk to the level of the USSR, Burma, Iran and North Korea" without offering alternative ideas for protecting us from slaughter.
I'm not defending any single decision. i'm calling out isolated, anecdotal criticism that fails to offer alternatives.
Our government has a huge responsibility to protect us. And I'm weary of the immature demands by the media and public for detail justifying the methods that provide them their own security.
Does being at war suck? without question! are sacrifices required during war? without question! At some point PQ - and all of us - need to face the fact that there's a lot of ugliness in the world that goes on to keep us safe. We should indulge in the luxury of our own security with a bit more contentment. If you're not content - offer alternatives - not caustic assessment.
path (anonymous) says…
asshole? wow!
Cowardly? Suburban? I just asked a question.
the only comics i view are George Stephanopoulis and friends!
why are you so angry?
lazz (anonymous) says…
Our system of government is designed to be self-policing, and we grant limited powers to our collective government, in part to protect us from exterior dangers.
The current administration has bullied down both protections. The rest of our federal government is too cowardly, inept or beholden to police Bush's executive branch; with that as Step 1, the current administration has taken Step 2, which is to destroy any concept of "limited powers."
Torture is morally repugnant and, to any American not employed by George Bush, illegal. Torture also extracts "information" that is less than worthless.
There are many methods open to our clandestine services, military forces and diplomatic corps that would increase our security while preserving our souls.
Too many Americans are searching for absolute, guaranteed "security." That will never happen, and current practices are pushing us further from that goal, sometimes in small slides, something by great displacements.
We are very often wrong, but we should never be evil.
Simple as that.
And the sad fact is, we are doing an infinitely more complete job of terrorizing ourselves than Osama Bin Shithead ever did or will.
lazz (anonymous) says…
From the New Yorker article Quinn cites, quoting retired FBI agent Dan Coleman, a veteran of numerous anti-terrorist investigations, an anachronistic man who believes in methodical investigative techniques and intelligent interrogations, including assigning defense lawyers for suspects and assuring them of their rights -- the idea being, once they are playing within the system, they can see a way out and understand the benefit of cooperation. And cooperative testimony is useful both for further investigation and eventual judicial proceedings:
"Brutalization doesn't work. Besides that, you lose your soul."
quinno (Patrick Quinn) says…
One of the most insulting things about the Right's aggressive ignorance is its arrogance. That the new social leaders of the former United States of America are morons who sense of "history" was awakened some four years ago apparently means that the whole rest of the world is now supposed to sit back and wait for the neoAmericans to catch up on several millenia of civilization.
News flash: Nobody gives a shit what yr "weary" of. The suggestion that the "original function" of the United States government is to make gutless quivering morons feel "safe" boggles the mind.
Murdering and torturing people in concentration camps is a foul, evil thing perpetrated exclusively by foul, evil people. News flash #2: Fifty years from now, when with luck you've learned something about history and p'haps can even find Iraq on a map, you will know the great lesson of the Second World War: There weren't any "good Germans." Going to church six times a week, burning biology textbooks and screeching about Jesus doesn't make murdering and torturing people in concentration camps "OK." Eliminating taxation, printing money as fast as you can and reducing the economy to ashes doesn't make murdering and torturing people in concentration camps "OK." Breaking an arm patting yourself on the back for being a "good American" doesn't make murdering and torturing people in concentration camps "OK." If you need these things explained to you,
1) Yr an excellent candidate for the Republican National Committee.
2) Yr a moral imbecile.
I'm angry because uneducated, ignorant simpletons have taken over the country of my birth and turned it into the world's largest operator of concentration camps. In this space, we don't indulge in long, sophomoric discussions about when it's OK to murder and torture people in concentration camps--you can go to the White House or the sockpuppets at national review for that. In this space, the uneducated ignorant murdering swine get called out every time.
If you don't like this space, stay out of it. There's enough Abu Ghraib porn floating around to keep you folks entertained without involving the rest of us.
vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…
I take exception to some of what your opinion is Mr Quinn- mainly that you lump everyone who doesn't share your same point of view as imbeciles, morons, religous zealots and worse yet... republicans.
I am an active duty E-6 in the U.S. Air Force. I've spent 6 months in Afghanistan and 10 months in Iraq. Believe me I know where to find those countries on a map.
I voted for Kerry, not because I'm a democrat (nor am I republican), but because I don't like the direction President Bush is taking this country.
That being said... I have had a chance to interact with the operators (i.e. Special Forces, intel troops, intel contractors) on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are doing what they have to do to keep people like you, Mr Quinn, safe in the USA. Knowing that IF/WHEN they get caught violating the "rules" of interrogation set down by U.S. law that THEY will be ones going to prison, not their commanders/bosses/government officials- even though they are the ones telling them to do it; to break their own rules.
Some really good intelligence has come out of these interrogation sessions, intel that has saved American lives! Does the end justify the means? Only time will tell... but to sit in your cozy home in middle America and call the people that are risking their lives and livelyhood for YOUR protection Nazis- I take offense to that. If you don't like what is being done; do something about it. Bitching and name calling on a website doesn't help stop the tortures.
Please don't take my rant as a personal attack on you. All I'm saying is please be considerate of those whose opinions differ from yours; a debate is only as mature as the people who are debating.
quinno (Patrick Quinn) says…
Jesus... is it really that bad in the Air Force? You've got a bright future in neoAmerica, Slappy. Pity we didn't have you on the submarine... You might've learned something about the history of the country you serve.
Quick lesson: The assholes w/ the pliers always say they're "doing what they have to do." Morons always accept that. No doubt scads and scads really vital intelligence comes out of the torture sessions, and no doubt they get all the E-6s daily bullet lists of all the American lives they've saved w/ their pliers, but of course none of that can be shared w/ the rest of the world, right? It's all "classified," just like the torture planes the Air Force is now flying all around the world.
When I need a moron to "defend" me, I'll call you right away, and then you can round up some Muslim teenagers and have at them with your fucking cattle prod and take all the pictures you want. Until that happens, in this space yr just another torture pig. If you don't like that, stay out of this space.
Deal with it.
lazz (anonymous) says…
It's impossible to have a calm, mature "debate" about this. And that's the very point you are missing, vertigo -- there is no debate about the central topic of Quinn's blog: We are condoning and exporting wide-scale, indiscriminate torture. That is wrong. No Debate. We are sending people to countries where they boil off body parts to get detainees to talk, even boil them to death. We have almost certainly participated in the "water board" method of torture -- strapping a man to a board and rolling it over in water until near-drowning. Or horror chambers filled with fetid, putrid water, or electric shocks sent repeatedly through a man's testicles, and when that's done, strapping him to an electrified bed frame ... The military operators on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan are not, by all reasonable accounts, involved in this: They are doing hard jobs and, by all reports, 99.9 percent of them are doing so exceptionally well -- the only significant exception being the prison horrors. They are working largely within the confines of existing and reaffirmed American law. The point you are missing is that that law, Bush's most recent executive mandate, specifically does not include the CIA and other non-DOD black-ops outfits that proudly call themselves by nifty nmes like "Special Removal Squads" and fly around the world in unmarked Gulfstream V's ... They kidnap at will, they extradite to countries that specialize in torture, and there they almost certainly play along as their evil comrades set about tortoring somebody for a couple of years. Let's just leave alone for now the idea that all information gathered by torture is worthless. Let's focus on the fact that we are torturing people. Do you not see how this makes us into the worst of them? When we're done torturing them we ship them off to anonymous holes on the south side of Cuba. We deny them any and all access to lawyers and courts. We treat them worse than we treat rabid dogs, and we don't give a shit whether they are guilty of anything or not.
Simply put: We're going too goddamn far. No debate.
vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…
And what evidence do any of you have to support your claims of these so called "torture planes"? I find that almost laughable.
Do you know how expensive it is to operate a jet?
Why go through all the trouble of setting up an airfield, complete with fuel depots and aircraft maintainers, using thousands of dollars of fuel, keeping the tens of personnel needed to launch an aircraft "out of the loop" as to what the aircrafts mission is, secretly moving the suspects to the planes without any witnesses when all you have to do is find an abandoned hole in the ground to do your torturing. Besides Gulfstream Vs are pretty small airframes, not a whole lot of room to maneuver when trying to apply your pliers.
I love it when people (and I'm not talking about you, lazz) can't come up with an intelligent argument and have to revert to name calling, stereotyping, and just plain idiocy.
FYI- I've applied for early release from active duty because of the way our country is headed; this after spending 11 years of life sacrificing time away from home and family for the U.S. I never once said that I believe it's right what we are doing.
To lump me in the same category as those who are doing the torturing just shows your ignorance of the real world outside of Lawrence, Kansas.
I'm doing something to reflect my distaste of our nations policies- I'm giving up a career and a lifelong retirement check. What are you doing to show your distaste? Calling people names and stereotyping. thats sad!
lazz (anonymous) says…
Before you describe it as "laughable," you'd better read up. This isn't fiction. That's what's so damn scary.
Quinn gives you the New Yorker link up top. London's Guardian newspaper has done, I've heard, a great job of covering this --- including flight logs and tail numbers (changed twice) for the Gulfstream V. The Atlantic magazine has been all over many aspects of this stuff, though not speciifically the Special Removal Units.
I know this is all very, very freaky. It sounds like fantasy. That's what's so damn scary. It's not.
quinno (Patrick Quinn) says…
Sonny boy, when I need to hear from people like you about what "the real world" is like, you'll know you've won the culture war. And by the way--I'm not in Lawrence. I'm in Frisco, Colorado. And by the by the way: My name is "Patrick Quinn." What the fuck is yours, you gutless little net troll?
I detect a little cognitive dissonance here, Slappy--can't decide if you approve of the torture or not, huh? Yr leaving the service because yr unhappy with the "way our country is headed," but you're defending the torturers because of all the "intelligence" they produce... So a perfect America would only torture the people _you_ want to torture... Is that it?
This is a pure litmus test issue. You failed.
Now beat it.
vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…
One man's story (not yet proven) does not a conspiracy make.
vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…
Jesse Crittenden
email is vertigo72@ nc.rr.com or jesse.crittenden@ pope.af.mil (remove the spaces)
And yes you are correct- I'm leaving over the overall direction Pres Bush is taking us. The torture aspect is one step of many that he is taking on his path. If there was another way of gathering the intel we've gained than I would be all for it. Unfortunately there's not. So basically it boils down to this- which would you rather have? The U.S. continuing doing what it's doing and thereby preventing terror attacks or stop our intel gathering ops and let the terrorists have free reign to cause chaos and death on U.S. soil. As much as it sickens to know that we use torture methods- I'd rather have them suffer at our hands than have you suffer, Patrick, at their hands.
If you haven't caught on yet... no matter how many times you tell me to "leave this space" and "beat it" I'm not going to. I have just as much right to state my opinion as you have to state yours. Don't like it? Don't blog.
lazz (anonymous) says…
This says it all --
somebody just dropped off a new G.I. Joe package they bought in the Hy-Vee dollar bin ...
here's the packaging:
G.I. Joe, A Real American Hero
Valor (Gung Ho) vs. Venom (Wild Weasel)
With Knife Slashing Action!
Clip and Save: four battle points
For ages 5+
lazz (anonymous) says…
"The U.S. continuing doing what it's doing and thereby preventing terror attacks" makes a huge, huge, huge leap in assumptions ...
lazz (anonymous) says…
more GI JOE:
the best part, on the back packaging this "Real American Hero" is the fine print: Made in China.
vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…
lol
quinno (Patrick Quinn) says…
Listen up, Jesse: There's not the slightest evidence that ANY useful intel has come out of those camps, and I (and the whole rest of the world) do not care what yr hearing from "operators" saying otherwise. Do you honestly believe that the swine in the White House would hesitate for 10 seconds to go public w/ even the slightest scrap of useful intel produced by these ghastly camps? They'd trumpet it from the rooftops, and you know it.
Terrorists having free reign on US soil? Don't be an idiot: That's a Denzel Washington movie, not real life.
We whipped the Germans (twice), the Japanese and the Communists w/out murdering and torturing people in concentration camps. The camps we did build in WWII, to hold Japanese, are a continuing national disgrace. If the people fighting this war can't fight it w/out murdering and torturing people in concentration camps, maybe it's time to sit them down and put in the varsity.
This is a litmus test issue. There is no moral justification for murdering and torturing people in concentration camps, period. I don't care what yr superiors tell you to the contrary, and anyway yr supposed to be smarter than that. If yr not, then think seriously about remaining in the Air Force. Yr not gonna like it much out here in the fake world.
Mr_A (Bryan Anderson) says…
The fact that torture is wrong should be an absolute, like gravity, evolution, and the fact that the Dave Matthews Band sucks. The fact that we are even having a debate about torture would have been astounding to me before the Bush administration.
Little suprises me anymore from the administration that spouts double-speak at all times, turning global warming into "climate change", homophobia into "protecting marriage", and cornering a piece of middle eastern territory for oil into "spreading freedom." Next the Bush administration could establish a Ministry of Truth to tell us such things as:
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Sound a little too far-fetched and Orwellian? We already have a Ministry of Love.
Also, to quote Todd, "torture has been used throughout history by all nations"
You know, so has slavery, but that doesn't make it right. That argument that "everyone else is doing it so it's ok" is the same brainlessness that turned regular Germans into goose-stepping Nazis, southerners into lynchers, and frat boys into Dave Matthews Band fans.
-Bryan Anderson