Safe in the Fire Swamp

On the Futility of Bailouts, Part Deux

Robert Reich has a question:

"[GM's labor problem is] an almost impossible dilemma," said former labor secretary Robert B. Reich, now a professor at the University of California-Berkeley. "GM is a global company -- so for that matter is AIG and the biggest Wall Street banks. That means that bailing them out doesn't necessarily redound to the benefit of the U.S. or American workers.

"More significantly, it raises fundamental questions about the purpose of bailing out these big companies. If GM is going to do more of its production overseas, then why exactly are we saving GM?"

I love how all these super duper smart former government people never bother to ask the question until they are former government people. When they are in government, they insist on bringing home every mangy kitten they find because, good golly, if these companies go out of business well that would be bad. And so without considering any possible adverse consequences, they spend all manner of taxpayer money to allow the company to keep doing the kinds of things that got it in trouble in the first place.

Like this:

"While paying a U.S. autoworker with benefits costs about $54 an hour, a South Korean worker earns about $22 an hour, a Mexican worker earns less than $10 an hour and some Chinese workers can earn as little as $3 an hour, industry sources said. "

If US autoworkers demand more than $100,000 a year to do the same job a Mexican will do for a fifth of that, then they will lose those jobs, sooner or later, because the consumers have neither the responsibility nor the desire to support that wage differential(1). You want to keep jobs here? Immediately halve the salary of US auto workers. They'll still be making more than the average accountant, and for a job that's a lot easier.

But be that as it may, Reich has finally stumbled onto the truth: there is almost no such thing as a national company anymore, at least not a company of any size. That means that any bailout coming from the government is guaranteed to hurt the people under that specific government without any guarantee that they will receive any benefit from it at all.

Then again, I suspect the people who are supposed to benefit are those who run the bailouts and their friends, anyway.

(1) Which is precisely why, in addition to being economically stupid, it's morally wrong to use tax dollars to "save" them. What the government is saying is that since you won't voluntarily pay that extra money for a car, we are going to take your money and give it to the carmaker anyway. Oh, and not give you a car.

Reply 17 comments from Bill Hoyt Dotdot Keith Cfdxprt Jenny Kratz

On the futility of bailouts

How to burn $7 Billion without breaking a sweat:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Chrysler LLC will not repay U.S. taxpayers more than $7 billion in bailout money it received earlier this year and as part of its bankruptcy filing.

This revelation was buried within Chrysler's bankruptcy filings last week and confirmed by the Obama administration Tuesday...

"While we do not expect a recovery of these funds, we are comfortable that in the totality of the arrangement, the Treasury and the American taxpayer are being fairly compensated," said the official.


It's a good thing the American auto industry was saved back in December, that's all I can say. Because if it wasn't, Chrysler might be in bankruptcy and GM might be implementing a plan to wipe out their shareholders and turn the company over to its debtors, the UAW, and Uncle Sam. And we know from sworn congressional testimony(1) that these things would result in the end of America as we knew it. Or something. In fact, all $7 billion bought was 4 months for Chrysler at a cost to the taxpayers of almost two thousand million dollars a month. I wouldn't call that "fairly compensated," but hey, government guys are smarter than me and are expected to know these things.

But there is plenty of good news, though as is the press' habit they are making it out as a net negative. Chrysler is bankrupt, Chapter 11, but the only way out of their current troubles is bankruptcy, and so the sooner they get into it the sooner they can get through it. If they should manage to lose their current piratical management class in that process, they just might get back to profitably making cars people wish to buy.

GM is issuing so many shares (and reverse-splitting 1-100) that their current shareholders will be wiped out. But their shareholders deserve to be wiped out, and the company could do far worse than being owned and run by its employees. Hell, they already have done far worse, which is why it is functionally bankrupt in the first place.

It's even good news that Obama saw where this whole process was going and put the kabosh to it rather than stringing it along with more taxpayer money. Even he realizes that the taxpayers can take only so much such compensation. And there will be no similar newspaper "bailout."

It would be nice if Obama's willingness to cut off the life support meant that he learned a lesson that his predecessor never seemed to grasp(2) and which needs to be applied all across government: you do not avoid pain by putting it off, all you do it raise its price. If we had allowed Chrysler to go through bankruptcy in December, they would probably already be through the process. Instead, it still lies ahead of us and our children get to pay compound interest on $7 billion dollars in perpetuity.

Now if we could apply that lesson to the banks, we just might be able to avoid a Japanese-style, decades-long depression.

(1) Dominated by the critical issue of private jets.

(2) Or maybe he grasped it but was content to make the whole thing someone else's problem.

Reply 6 comments from Bill Hoyt Terry Bush Myname Jenny Kratz Alm77

What I learned on my vacation to Yucatan

The Mayan Templo de los Siete Muñecos is cool, but of less than maximum potential coolness when you get there after sunrise two days before the equinox.

When your Mexican guide jokes about the "chicken tacos" really being iguana tacos, he's probably not joking.

There was no way I was going to pay .70 a minute to websurf via satellite from the middle of the Gulf of Mexico. I only watched the news once, it was in Spanish, and I still don't know what Obama said nor the actress that died.

Black people really do have more rhythm than white people. There is a reason for the stereotype. And it's not just American white people or American black people.

There is no point in getting off the boat in Cozumel. Everything there is available in Puerto Progresso for 1/3 the price.

Any American who pays $75 for a "Segway Adventure" on the beach needs to be left behind as a matter of principle.

I could listen to a gray-headed Jamaican bartender all day, mon.

I'm back on my diet. Not that I gained any weight on the cruise - eating seafood and veggies two meals a day will not pack on the pounds. But I was amazed at how fat Americans, including myself, are compared to the rest of the world.

If you bring homework on vacation, you will do it, but it will not seem a chore.

Contraband Cuban cigars fit very well in the slide of a trombone.

Never try to throw books away on a cruise ship. On Tuesday I finished "War to the Knife," which had a broken spine when I received it via Amazon. I brought it on the cruise fully intending to throw it away, and I did, in my room. The cleaning guy took it out of the trash. On Wednesday, I threw it away again, and the cleaning guy took it out of the trash again. So on Thursday, I put it in a bag with a bunch of trash paper and threw it in the trash. The cleaning guy took it out of the trash a third time. So on Friday, I took it five floors up to one of the dining rooms, still in the bag, and threw it in the trash there. But I quickly discovered what looked like the trash was only a bin for napkins. No worries, maybe they'll get the hint and dispose of it. This morning at breakfast, Rogue sees the book sitting out on one of the tables. Apparently they pulled it out of the not-trash thinking someone threw it away by mistake. Next time, any book I no longer want I'll just leave in the ship's library, where it is guaranteed to never be read again.

There's no place like home.

Reply 4 comments from Alm77 Bill Hoyt Duplenty Dotdot

The amazing disappearing weapons

JR Nyquist fails to account for a few:

A former KGB officer, Panarin made a splash by predicting that America will probably come under martial law by the end of 2009, and may fracture into several states by 2011...

If this should happen, foreign powers would intervene and the country would be split along geographical lines: California and the West would fall under Chinese control, Texas and the south would go to Mexico, and Russia would lay claim to Alaska...

Without the United States in the picture, Russia and China would be the dominant powers. They would dictate terms to the world. No country or group of countries could possibly stand against them. This is because Russia and China possess thousands of nuclear weapons...

Since I first read Joel Garreau's 1981 book, The Nine Nations of North America, I've been fascinated with its premise: North America may be three nations politically, but it is really at least nine economically and culturally. There's French-speaking Quebec in the north, Spanish-speaking MexAmerica al sur, tree-hugging Ecotopia on the West Coast. It does not take a genius to posit(1) that if America ever did break up, it would likely be along those lines.

That said, there seem to be a few things missing from the analyses of both Mr. Panarin and Mr. Nyquist. The easy ones are, well, easy: if China cannot control Taiwan, and if China cannot move millions of men quickly by ship, it has less chance of controlling California than does Costa Rica. In fact, the problems that would lead America to this manner of breakup flash double for China: they have dozens of ethnic groups and languages, none of whom would have anything constructive to do if their major customer disappeared. They share borders with nuclear Russia and India, and Japan is still in their way. Perhaps China can control North Korea. California is out of the question.

The same story in the south. Texas would hardly "go to Mexico." If Mexico lasts as a single nation for the next decade I'll be surprised. In fact, if Mexico was smart, they'd try to figure out a way to get Texas to conquer them. Any proposed North American Union is not Canada and Mexico taking over the US.

The analysis also fails to account for four smaller issues that I shan't expound upon: Russia's horrible demographics, its less-than-half-the-US population, Russia and China's underdeveloped economies, and whether Russia and China could get along if the US was not around. I'll just say I seem to remember there was a time when the USSR and the US were allies, and no one could stand against them...

But the idea that Russia could control Alaska - plausible on the surface because Russia could conceivably march troops across the Bering Strait - requires even more fanciful thinking. Russia and China, we are told, would dictate terms to the world because they possess thousands of nuclear weapons. I for one would opine that if Alaska ever broke from the US, it would immediately become the third nuclear power in North America. Texas might be the fourth. Even tiny Hawaii(2) might be able to offer some jet-fuel powered deterrent. Even after a breakup, some power called The United States - even if it was only made up of 20-some disunited ones - would be a nuclear power as well. If the United States ceased to exist, our nuclear arsenal would not, just like the USSR's did not when they became Russia and Ukraine and the Baltics and a whole handful of -istans. Russia quickly got control of the nukes, and foreign powers have wisely not tried to take over the parts spun off by the centrifugal collapse of communism(3) for that reason.

The devolution of the US(4) would leave a handful of angry, hungry nuclear powers on this continent. Perhaps we would nuke each other before anyone else tried to get involved, in which case, the Russians would be welcome to the smoldering ruins. But until that happens, any thoughts that the Russians and the Chinese might be able to expand their real estate markets in the wake of an American collapse have about 10,000 uranium-based arguments against them.

(1) Well, it does not take one to understand it, because I did.

(2) Though it's not really in North America.

(3) We have unwisely tried to do so after a fashion, an effort that probably died last year when Russian tanks rolled into Georgia. Territory is held by boots on the ground.

(4) Before anyone asks, I lay the odds at about 2% per decade going forward. Not very likely, but not out of the realm of imaginable possibility over the long term. Hey, things change.

Reply 3 comments from Feeble Bill Hoyt Alm77

Not winning

See if you can find today's meme:

Obama says U.S. not winning Afghanistan War

Biden says West "not winning" in Afghanistan

McCain: 'We Are Not Winning' War in Afghanistan

US general says troops "not winning" in Afghanistan

So we started the war in Afghanistan in what? 2002? If we have not won by now, we have lost, and it's time to come home. It is a simple reality of history and of politics, and not unlike our own history, though sometimes we lose valuable insight by trying to make a morality play out of everything.

In 1776, the American population was not at all unanimous on breaking away from Britain. It was not even a majority view, though it was a large plurality. The rest of the people were either doggedly anti-independence (maybe 1 in 5) or completely apolitical. That was at the beginning, and if there was ever a chance to "settle" the Americans it was while the majority of them either supported Britain or didn't care.

However, as the war dragged on, as it affected more and more people in more and more ways, and as it became harder to stay out, more people chose sides, and once they chose, that was permanent. From the time a solid majority of armed, male Americans wanted independence, it did not matter what the British did short of killing them all, which was out of their power. Britain was going to lose America, and if not in 1776 or 81, then in 1812 or whenever they turned their heads to look at something else. Because the outcome was not in doubt, the faster they lost, the better for them in the long run.

Americans in 2009 are the Brits of 1781. We have years of war behind us. We have years of people choosing sides, of dead relatives, of passions whipped up by partisans. We have a generation of boys grown up whose sole purpose in life is to kill the Americans. The sides are drawn up, and there are no more hearts and minds to be won. Short of oppressing and driving millions from the country, we can no longer win in Afghanistan.

So why don't politicians see it that way? Because it's not a matter of history. Afghanistan to Washington is a puzzle, a challenge, a chance to show how clever they are and what great leaders they are. They truly believe that victory there is a matter of strategy rather than a matter of several million men with guns who do not want you. Surely a few more tweaks to our strategy will convince them that they were wrong to fight us, right?

"When you aren't winning in this kind of war," McCain says, "you are losing." I would say that if after billions of dollars and eight years, if you have not already won, you have already lost.

Reply 15 comments from Duplenty Alm77 Fritz Bill Hoyt Myname Dotdot

ooooh, yeah

The make-believe Macho Man hath a plan:

Got a call this morning from [Randy Savage impersonator] J.R. Moore of St. Louis who told me that he had an idea better than President Barack Obama's economic stimulus plan...

Here's how Moore's plan works: Buy lottery tickets...

Unlike other lottery games, Moore says the Pick 4 has relatively good odds for a cheap price. If you play the numbers in exact order (in Moore's case 4-0-2-0) your chance of winning is 1 in 10,000. And a 50 cent lottery ticket can net you $3,000. Spend a buck and you'll make $6,000...

If everyone in St. Louis plays their home address in the Pick 4, Moore believes several local people each day will win -- especially considering that the Pick 4 has two daily drawings...

"That's a dozen or so people in St. Louis who could have $3,000 or $6,000 in their pocket each day," says Moore. "And what are they going to do with that cash? They're going to spend it!"

The press snickers at a wrestling impersonator's magic plan to save the St. Louis economy(1), but not only is it no stupider than Obama's stimulus plan, it is based on exactly the same faulty premise.

The bad premise is easy to see: no matter how the money is divided up, no matter what the odds, there is no money coming out of the lottery that did not first go into it. For every person who wins $10,000, there are 10,000 who lose $1. While there is economic activity - we have moved $10,000 around - there is no more value in the economy for it having been moved.

Obama's stimulus package is based on the same fallacy. Obama is going to spend, say a trillion dollars, which we are assured will create so many jobs that every American will be able to have 2 or 3 of them. Where is the money coming from? It is being borrowed from investors - investors who are therefore withholding that same money from some other borrower. Obama is simply borrowing a trillion dollars out of the economy, spending it back into the economy, and pronouncing the jobs thereby gathered into one place as "created."

The make-believe Macho Man's plan is silly, because all it does is move money around, celebrating the end result while ignoring the equal and offsetting costs. Obama's plan is the darling of politicians and economists all along the Potomac. The difference?

With Obama's plan, politicians and economists get to spend the money.

(1) And rightly so. It's actually worse than I let on above, as anyone who takes 1-10,000 odds for a 6,000-1 payoff is on the way to the poorhouse, especially if done en masse as 'the plan' posits. The Lottery is a voluntary tax on innumeracy disguised as a retirement plan.

Reply 37 comments from Bill Hoyt Alm77 Bob_brown Dotdot Duplenty Matt Armstrong Myname Smerdyakov Cfdxprt

Shut up, Happy

Standard and Poor's warns we've only just begun:

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- The credit crunch may only be in its early stages and a bigger contraction in lending in coming months could have "serious implications" for the U.S. economy, Standard & Poor's Rating Services said Friday.

While politicians and others have complained that banks aren't lending, the data on outstanding credit in the U.S. only tenuously supports this idea, the rating agency said.

"What's behind the apparent difference between perception and reality?" Standard & Poor's credit analyst Tanya Azarchs said. "It may be that, while growth in overall credit was positive through at least third-quarter 2008, it has risen at a slower pace than at any time since 1945 -- far below the 8%-10% rate in most years."

Reading the third paragraph in conjunction with the first is enough to give one Orwellian fits(1); one cannot possibly have a "bigger contraction in lending" when lending has not yet contracted. That's like reducing your debt by refinancing your house to pay your credit cards and taking a vacation to Tahoe on all the money you will save in the future(2).

Assuming that credit is still expanding, then we are still doing nothing to deal with the underlying cause of our financial troubles: that people already have more debt than their incomes can support. Put into that light, one can see easily the absolute insanity of credit needing to grow at an 8-10% rate, year after year. Are there 8-10% more Americans each year? Of course not. Therefore each existing American is expected to take on 8 or 10% more debt every year in order to keep our economy healthy(3).

Perhaps that is why S&P is right for the wrong reasons. Americans cannot take on more debt, therefore they will take on less. When "the numbers" start to show an actual decrease in debt vis-a-vis incomes - and when our cultural expectations reflect an abhorrence of debt equal to our late love of it - then we will be ripe for a generation-long recovery.

In the meantime, I expect we shall see our waves of "contraction" and market panic, currently coming at quarterly iterations, becoming worse and worse and closer and closer, until the market our government is fighting so hard finally reduces our debt burden - our demand on future production - to a reasonable and manageable level.

I'm reminded of the words of Paul, given in another context: "When they say, 'There is peace and safety,' then sudden destruction will come on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman; and they will not escape it." At least not until they can pay their bills without going further into hock to do so.

(1) Or to qualify one as an Obama budget whiz, assuming one has paid his taxes.

(2) still, it comes as no surprise to discover that something taken as axiomatic in Washington is only "tenuously" supported by facts.

(3) And they are expected to pay interest to their bankers on that amount, of course.

Reply 11 comments from Bill Hoyt Alm77 Terry Bush Myname Dotdot

The toughest choices

are the ones to be most studiously avoided:TOPEKA - Lawmakers cut deeper into most state services Thursday to reduce the current state budget by $325.6 million, including a $32.3 million cut to public schools...[Minority Leader Sen. Anthony] Hensley argued that the $66 cut in per-pupil spending was not a compromise, since the Senate had proposed only a $33 cut.The reductions could bankrupt almost 50 school districts, he said. One item that seldom gets mentioned in these horrible "per student" budget disaster stories is how much is already being spent per student: $4433. Put another way, the cuts work out to $32 million out of a $3800 million budget, or less than 1%. If a less than 1% budget cut bankrupts 50 school districts, then they are so poorly run they should go bankrupt and the school buildings sold off to someone who knows how to handle money properly.But that's the good news(1). The bad news is that the state relied on GOP budget expertise gimmicks - "accounting changes and refinancing state bonds" - for more than half of the budget adjustment necessary to get through this year. Those are one-time fixes. Next year, the cuts will be far bigger and they will be far more difficult to avoid. State agencies have been told to expect 5% cuts. They will be bigger, trust me. And the screams will be far louder.Just another reason to expect an announcement this weekend that our Governess is off to Washington(2) to be the Commerce Secretary. Assuming she paid her taxes.(1) Well, it's bad news for people who think taxpayer-supported schools are dandy, but it's the best they are going to get. Since K-12 education is 56% of the general fund, it will not be able to avoid taking the lion's share of the cuts next year.(2) Which is rather funny, in that the former head of the Kansas GOP, Mark Parkinson, would take over as Democratic Governor. I wonder if anyone will work with him? This is not a flippant question. Just like Jesse Ventura found it hard to govern mostly because no party had an interest in his success, so Parkinson will. That's going to make it very hard for him to govern in any meaningful sense of the word.

Reply

Ignorance is strength

At least when it comes to the financial system:Britain was just three hours away from going bust last year after a secret run on the banks, one of Gordon Brown's Ministers has revealed.City Minister Paul Myners disclosed that on Friday, October 10, the country was 'very close' to a complete banking collapse after 'major depositors' attempted to withdraw their money en masse...But 60-year-old Lord Myners was accused last night of being 'completely irresponsible' for admitting the scale of the crisis while the recession was still deepening and major institutions such as Barclays remain under intense pressure...Ruth Lea, economic adviser to the Arbuthnot Banking Group, said last night that it was 'highly irresponsible' for Lord Myners to reveal the scale of the problems because it could serve to further wreck already fragile levels of confidence.There is something almost ghoulish about being constantly reminded that one should not tell the truth, because if people knew the truth, the entire economic world would collapse around them.That might seem a little hyperbolic, but I assure you it's not, because Ms. Lea doubtless speaks for many in positions of authority who would criticize telling the truth about our modern banking system if their doing so would not simply draw more attention to the problem. But even then, they see the wrong problem: they see confidence as a cause, rather than an effect, of a functioning banking system.The cause-effect difference is obvious if one puts it in a little different perspective. Let's say that you discover that your friend's husband is cheating on her with his secretary. Because she is ignorant, your friend has complete confidence in her marriage. Telling your friend the truth will likely wreck her marriage - her confidence in it will be destroyed. To not tell your friend the truth means that she will be deceived and betrayed, not only by her husband but her friend, until that day that she pays him a surprise visit at the office and learns the truth for herself. You will not have saved your friend's marriage by withholding the truth from her, nor will you likely be able to save your friendship if she discovers your duplicity(1). While in ignorance, your friend may have confidence in her marriage, and it may even have the appearance of being functional (this is the government's attitude: it is better for you to live happily in ignorance) but it is a sham that will - must - someday fail.The major result of the government valuing this ignorance/confidence as a cause of sound banking is that it must generate that confidence through all manner of symbolic measures - interest rate adjustments, guarantees, even show trials - designed to 'save' the marriage by keeping the betrayed partner ignorant of the truth. To stand Churchill on his head, in banking, falsehood is so precious that should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.The weakness of the comparison is obvious in the actual solution, that the husband should be faithful to his wife: you obviously cannot control his actions, you can only choose from bad alternatives. But there is no such excuse in the case of government, for banks have not the husband's free will: as creatures of government they do what they do at the behest of government and under the auspices of government. They only exist because banking laws create them.The real solution to the problem of confidence in the banking system is to create a banking system that doesn't need it in order to function(2). Such a system naturally creates confidence, not by ignorance and propaganda, but by experience. Any solution that relies on manufactured consumer confidence to keep the game going is an ignorant and betrayed wife: at some point her misplaced confidence will give way to the painful truth.Britain was three hours from discovering that truth, and the U.S. maybe six that day. But the truth will come out, eventually, with all the screaming and thrown lamps it deserves.(1) especially if you are the secretary.(2) To do so is simple. Not easy, but simple. The Fed and fractional reserve banking should be eliminated and all deposits lent out should be time deposits, meaning that you lend the bank x dollars for x years at x rate with no expectation of early withdrawal. "Your" money is not in the bank, so don't show up asking for it. If you want the bank solely to hold and protect your money - i.e. if you want it on demand - then you pay the bank for that privilege, just like you pay the storage facility to hold all those old clothes you might fit into again someday.

Reply 13 comments from Alm77 Dotdot Matt Toplikar Bill Hoyt Terry Bush

A New Era of Responsibility

Mr. President declares Mission Accomplished:“What the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath them — that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for so long no longer apply,” said Mr. Obama, who in his campaign emphasized a commitment to reduce partisanship. “The question we ask today is not whether our government is too big or too small, but whether it works — whether it helps families find jobs at a decent wage, care they can afford, a retirement that is dignified.”It is not surprising that in class today we watched the inauguration. It was a history class after all, and this is history. One interesting note was that no one in class raised their hand when the professor asked if anyone thought this was a bad day for America. Not even me, as I don't find it any worse than yesterday or tomorrow, and see no difference whether the man with his hand on the Bible is named Obama or McCain. I certainly hope Obama turns out to be the best President we have ever had, wish him the best of luck, and pray(1) that he will make all his decisions - decisions that I would never wish to face - with God-given wisdom. While perhaps it is faithless of me to expect that prayer to go mostly unanswered, I cannot fail in my duty to ask. I will also rejoice in those small times when it is answered.But Obama's inauguration is in some sense, "Mission Accomplished," as one will note that nothing in Obama's laundry list of what separates him from "the cynics" - those who still care whether government is too big or too small - is found in the Constitution. It is no longer at issue whether - as arises from my cynical reading of history or the document - it is the primary responsibility of government to manage employment or retirement or health care or child care for individual Americans. Smooth words about an Era of Responsibility aside, it will henceforth not be Americans who are responsible for America, but America which is responsible for them. Ask instead what your country can do for your 401(k).For one brief, shining moment, the Congress stood against a $700 billion, budget-busting, blatant looting of the public treasury. Four short months later, it accepts with precious little dissent trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see(3), with the Democrats lining up shovel-ready Mob museums and Republicans begging for table scraps. Our government now looks foursquare upon Change, the institutionalization of that glorious day when, as Tocqueville warned, it might spare us all the care of thinking and all the trouble of living.God bless America.1. The day Clinton was inaugurated, or actually that night, I was at a Bible study and was asked to lead the (somewhat dejected) group in prayer. I prayed pretty much the same prayer that I pray for Obama, that God would give Bill Clinton foresight, wisdom, and the ability to balance justice and mercy(2). You could have heard a pin drop. It was apparently inconceivable to many Republicans that a Democrat president might be used by God for our good. I'm afraid that most Christians' God is too small.2. "My desire is foremost that you will you will make requests and prayers and give praise to God for all men, and especially for kings and all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty." - 1Tim 2:1-23. Or as far as the dollar can stretch, which I suspect is significantly shorter.

Reply 4 comments from Bill Hoyt Alm77 Terry Bush

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