February 3, 2009
From Gaza to Greece, Lawrence to Oakland: We Do Mind Dying
On the night of Saturday January 31st, a crowd of over 50 people took to the streets of Lawrence, Kansas to show physical solidarity with the ongoing struggles against state violence in Gaza, Greece, Oakland, Augusta and beyond. Most of the participants were from Lawrence, but comrades from the blossoming Prairie Fire anarchist network from Omaha, Kansas City, and Oklahoma City were also well represented.
The marchers took over Kentucky Street, a major arterial street in the Oread Neighborhood, with large banners, torches and drums. Chants of "From Oakland to Greece, fuck the police!" and "From Lawrence to Iraq, the war is on every block!" echoed throughout the student neighborhood. Dozens of people came out of their homes along the march route, and hundreds of statements explaining the reasons for the march were handed out along the way.
The statements read:
"Take a Stand Today, ‘Cause Tomorrow Ain’t Promised!
As we reflect on the 1,300 killed by Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza, the recent murders by police in Oakland and cities all over the U.S., and the murder of an anarchist youth in Greece, we must realize that they are on the front lines of the same battle in the racist war of imperialism that is the health of capitalism. The missiles fired at Israel, the police cars burned in Oakland, and the universities occupied in Greece are not the unprovoked and irrelevant offensives many media outlets claim them to be. They are attempts to reclaim space and autonomy that are responses to years of aggression, racism, and domination.
What these violent actions and their corresponding responses show is that the facade of freedom and justice on which our “democratic” societies rely is fading. We are experiencing the illness of our economic and social system as financial structures crumble and thousands lose their jobs every week. Increasing numbers of people who have until recently avoided the worst aspects of capitalist “development” and maintained some level of comfort, material if not social, are realizing that their lives are just as disposable under this system as the billions worldwide who starve daily. At the same time, popular power is expanding as governments flaunt their unjust nature by handing billions to the rich and leaving families homeless and jobless while overseeing the outright murder of civilians. Around the world, millions have taken to the streets to voice their disgust with their governments.
In the U.S. however, many of us sit by and wait for our bosses to cut our jobs, for the lenders to take our homes, or for the police to brutalize yet another. While some publicly voice their rage, the vast majority stay at home, some even decrying those voicing their rage and disgust. Rather than sitting around and waiting, we are following our comrades around the world and making our demands for an end to state violence and repression heard. Of course, we understand that marching is certainly not where movements end; in fact, it may be one of the least effective tactics we know of. However, many movements continue to begin in the streets, and open displays of popular power often act to publicize struggles for liberty and justice alongside other more concrete organizing; from neighborhood councils to prisoner support, from union building to community gardening. In any case, how better to confront a spectacle asmonstrous as state capitalism than creating a counter-spectacle of our own?"
Police tried to order the marchers from the streets at various points, but were greeted with hostility each time. The march snaked from South Park through the Oread Neighborhood and back down Massachusetts Street, the main downtown area of Lawrence.
Marchers broke off at several points and left spraypainted messages about the police and state violence along side streets and buildings on the route. Kentucky street remained closed for at least a half an hour after the marchers left that street, as fire crews responded to burning debris in the road.
The march ended near the site of the murder of Tiger Dowdell, a black anti-imperialist militant, who was killed by the police in 1970. No arrests were made, and the confrontational tone of the march set a precedent for future actions against state repression.
Comments
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DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
"They are attempts to reclaim space and autonomy that are responses to years of aggression, racism, and domination."Bullshit.Ya'll walk down my street yelling "fuck" and scaring my kids I will kick all 50 of your dumb asses. God knows I've tried to listen to this anarchist shit, but you are doing nothing but bringing terrorism lite to Lawrence and I will stand against you. This is an insult to Palestinians in Gaza, Oscar Grant's family, and any other people who's suffering you coopt for your own amusement.You may be too stupid to realize that the Lawrence police and fire departments actually have other things to do than cleaning up after your nasty asses, but the whole thing wraps a nice perspective around the anarchist movement here in Lawrence.Goddamn idiots.
February 3, 2009 at 9:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alm77 (anonymous) says...
Oh, damn. Now you done gone pissed off the dots... Seriously, SPRAY-PAINT? Like that's gonna "wake up" the sleeepers. That's just gonna piss everyone off. This is why I prefer hippies to anarchists: "All you need is love."
February 3, 2009 at 11:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Shelby (anonymous) says...
"Violence is the Health of the State""Yo Cops! Get Out Now!"Brilliant signs from brilliant minds, I say.And a ridiculously one-sided assessment of the Israeli-Palestine conflict, claiming the Israeli Jews are racist......I just don't know how to respond to that.Seriously, you guys KNOW you're pissing in the wind....but I guess you must like pissing in the wind.
February 4, 2009 at 8:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
We're not coopting anyone's suffering. The fact is that the majority ofPalestinians are involved with resistance on a variety of fronts,including armed self defense. Also, Oscar Grant's family has supported thedemonstrations, and only after being pressured by their attorney to issuea statement calling for an end to "street violence" did they do so.This is but one of many things that anarchists do in Lawrence. To comparea march to terrorism is also a huge disservice and makes no sense.Terrorism is murdering people in ghettos all over the world. Terrorism ishunger and poverty. Many of those marching were recently laid offemployees in Lawrence. Many are merely a paycheck or an unemployment checkaway from finding themselves homeless.
February 4, 2009 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
You can disagree with what we're doing, and that's fine. But I reallythink that for you to call us "idiots" and resort to a comment thatsomewhat resembles a critique but is actually just name calling is a bithypocritical."nasty asses" "goddamn idiots" "dumb asses"Let's focus on what points you try to make that may be valid:1) Walking down your street yelling "fuck" and scaring your kids.I'm really sorry if this actually occurred. The word fuck can beoffensive, that's true, but it was being yelled by people that were mainlystreet kids, workers recently laid off, and people who have been victimsof police attacks here and in other communities. There is a lot of angerbuilt up from that. Some of these folks were friends with Greg Sevier, anative youth murdered by the Lawrence Police in the 90's, a time periodthat also saw Olin as police chief. So, there's a lot of anger there. Weapologize if that anger scared your kids. But a lot of folks that were inthe march have also been scared, and have also been victims of many actsof violence at the hands of the state.2) The Lawrence police and fire departments have other things to do.You are probably right on as far as the fire department goes, but havingfriends and even members of the local movement that are fire fighters, Ialso realize that they didn't see it as an inconvenience, and didn't thinka small piece of burning shirt was a big deal. They even complained thatone of the cops could have just taken out a fire extinguisher or a bucketof water to put out the small fire as opposed to calling in an entire fireengine for a small one square foot piece of burning debris.As far as the police go, I guess they could have been harassing homelessfolks instead, or cleaning up after some frat party. Maybe they were moreexcited with the march? Who knows.
February 4, 2009 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
One point I want to make is that in your post you obviously make anargument that violent responses to behavior that you feel threatens youand the ones you love (kicking our "dumb asses" for scaring your kids) isrational and makes sense. We agree with your logic here, and that's why wetook the streets. We see that the police violence across the country isn'tthe fault of a "few bad apples" but a systemic problem that allcommunities face. I would argue that the police only exist to protectproperty and property relations, and that therefor are systemicperpetrators of violence that affects poor and working communities. Also,again, many of the marchers are survivors of real physical violence at thehands of the police. Despite a claim that is perpetuated by many on theseboards, the anarchist movement is not made up of trust fund Johnson Countykids. We're mostly working class and poor people, from diversebackgrounds. We are in the streets because we are tired of theseconditions that affect our lives just as much as they affect the kidsbeing killed in Augusta (a city I spent my elementary school years in) andOakland.I'm all up for debates, and would love to have one, so if you haveanything civil to say, let's keep this going. I don't think I'm always inthe right, and critical analysis is always important.
February 4, 2009 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
Another point worth making here, especially to Shelby... Large segments of Jewish people, even Israeli Jews have mobilized to protest and resist what's happening in Gaza. There were Jews on the street during this march, and in Tel Aviv just last week there were over 5,000 Israelis that protested the occupation and invasion of Gaza.I think you might have a pretty one sided and simplistic view of the situation in Gaza if you think all Jewish people are in lock step behind the actions of their government, any more than anyone could argue that all Christians think Bush's actions were worth supporting.
February 4, 2009 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Shelby (anonymous) says...
I'm not sure I understand your position on Palestine, Dave. Please clarify.For one to characterize Israel's air strikes on Gaza as unwarranted, when Hamas has been relentlessly shelling civilian buildings, schools, houses, etc. since their coup of Gaza in 2007....seems pretty one-sided. A large majority of the international community has been leaning on an appeal to peace in the region, yet Hamas has been hellbent on violence, staunchly stubborn in their self-righteousness.Yes, innocent people are dying. To blame Israel is to be willfully ignorant.
February 4, 2009 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alm77 (anonymous) says...
That's it! I'm buying a pack of "Thank You" cards and sending them to our officers today. Dave, I don't disagree with you that bad cops killed innocent young people and we should all protest that AND raise awareness, but I think protesting *all* officers is throwing the baby out with the bath water. And everyone knows you don't win people to your cause by being a jackass. Try again.
February 4, 2009 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Shelby (anonymous) says...
I think we all owe Dave a bit more respect, personally--he's putting himself and his beliefs out there for all of us to pick apart. Just because we (strongly) disagree with him shouldn't give us license to call him a tool, and I'm guilty.
February 4, 2009 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
Shelby,Thanks for that last statement. That actually means a lot.Let me respond to some of the other points being raised here.1) The Gaza situation: My personal position on Gaza is lengthy, but I will be as clear and concise as possible. Jews and Arabs maintained a peaceful coexistence in the region up until the 1946 annexation of land that created Israel. The British, U.S., and U.N. created a colony for Jews that would become an official country, by helping in the eviction of thousands of Palestinians and others that settled the land. The creation of the Israeli state, a puppet for Western geo-political control in the region, and an easy answer to Anti-Semites that wanted to clear Jews out of Europe and the United States ("Let's just resettle them somewhere else!") was an act of war against a people that had already been living in the region. The Jewish people have been persecuted and need a place to feel safe and secure. I understand this and support this mentality. However, they had that before the creation of a nation state that also became a colonizing tool in the region throughout the 1946-1970 time period. Wars for land grabs, mass evictions and murder, the creation of ghettos for Palestinian civilians, were all tactics used by the Israeli state during this time (and into this time period). Please notice I use the world Israeli state. I am in no way trying to insinuate that the Jewish people as a whole are in anyway responsible for what is happening. However, those that continue to support the Israeli state are, just as those who in the U.S. continue to support the role of U.S. Imperialism are responsible for what's happening under this country's banner across the world.
February 4, 2009 at 11:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
Gaza is a strip of land that is inhabited mostly by Palestinians, many of them refugees from other parts of Palestine (Israel). This area is really comparable to a reservation for Indigenous peoples here in the U.S.As far as Hamas goes, I find no affinity with any group that seeks to recreate the violence of the state or become the state themselves. I don't support Hamas any more than I supported Saddam Hussein in Iraq. However, I do find affinity with and support ordinary Palestinians just as I supported and continue to support ordinary Iraqis. They are the ones suffering here. We continue to hear all about how many rockets Hamas has fired into Israel, but we rarely hear about deaths or casualties that are inflicted from these attacks. The truth is that they are rare indeed. The Israeli state is using these rocket attacks that are rarely inflicting actual damage on Israel as a way to wage total war against the Palestinian population en masse. Almost 1500 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military since December. Most of these people are non-combatants that are not in anyway linked to Hamas or Fatah or any of the political nationalist Palestinian organizations. The term "collective punishment" comes to mind.I have much more to say, but maybe this explains a bit better some of my initial responses to your questions about Hamas, etc..
February 4, 2009 at 11:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JordanRoberts (anonymous) says...
To those responsible for the escalation of that marchI usually stay pretty quiet on these things, but I can't help it this time.I'm sorry no cops hassled you during the march, that must have been quite a letdown for you. The march was a good idea in theory, but the second you start chanting "fuck the police" and become a vandalizing mob instead of an intellectual, well-meaning protest group you become the thing that the cops should pay attention to, which is, I'm sure, exactly what you had in mind. Spraypaint? Burning debris? Senseless provocation. Tactics like that are why your march was 50 instead of 5000, as I'm sure there are many people like me who would come out for an anti-violence protest, but that's not the way the radical community in this town does things. Spectacles like this make me ashamed to share a precious few ideas with you. I'm as pro palestinian liberation as anybody, but Hammas has relentlessly shelled Isreal for the same reason that you relentlessly "shell" this community. I only hope that you fail where Hammas has succeded in provoking a disproportionate response.I'll put my name on this so I can be picked apart I suppose, I'm just fed up with the same counter-cultural mockery going on in this town everyday because somebody's on an ego trip.
February 4, 2009 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
2) "How to change the world":I think what bears repeating time and time again is that the anarchist movement in this town engages in actions like this maybe 10 times a year at most. We spend 365 days a year, however, building alternatives in this town. We maintain community gardens, free food programs, social centers that provide free internet books and warm space to people in the community, support for political and social prisoners, union and labor organizing, and many other types of work devoted to grassroots social change.A variety of tactics is what leads to changing the world. At least, this is what I believe. We march in the streets to feel some power, to be able to visibly show a physical solidarity with each other and others. It's but one component of a much larger social vision that we are engaged in every single day of the year.So, in short, we do more than "volunteer". We live out an existence of struggle against predatory economic, political, and social institutions. We've created many alternatives that we maintain on a daily basis. We feed and clothe people. We house people. We strive to make the conditions in our workplaces and neighborhoods better. But above all, we strive to realize popular power in every facet of our communities and our individual lives.Again, there is much more to be flushed out regarding this topic, but that may have to wait.
February 4, 2009 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
3) Greg Sevier:Greg never darted at any cop with a knife. He was threatening violence against himself, not anyone else. There's is a much better detailed account of the whole incident and the aftermath here: http://www.cybold.com/cybold/hitchita... to Jordan Roberts:The march escalated itself. The people who took part in the march picked out their own actions and how they would manifest their anger. I'm not "anti-violence" per se, I'm anti-domination and oppression. I'm not a pacifist. I believe in attacking the institutions of systemic violence that attack us all. Sometimes anger goes beyond "meaning well". The folks I organize with are not arm chair intellectuals that are just trying to figure out how to "help the masses". We're people that see our own lives and personal struggles in a broader social struggle. And maybe that's what's hard for many who are used to the usual "activist" dynamics to wrap their heads around.We organize as poor and working people. Not on behalf of others that are poor and working class. We organize to advance our own lives at the same time that we wish to help others in the same situations as ourselves. We see our lives in context, within a social struggle, not on the outside in some paternalistic ACORN sort of way. But that paternalism is easier for people to feel comfortable about, because the paternalistic organizations and activists fall neatly in line, staying usually within the confines of the law, organizing during election cycles, doing "feel good" activism.I reject that notion. When people that are marginalized and exploited come together to attack those that destroy them, it's not pretty or touchy feely or easily pushed into a box that makes many people in higher social situations feel comfortable. This isn't to say that my opinions in any way represent the opinions of all or even most working class, poor, or otherly marginalized folks... they're just my own. So, my suggestions to Jordan: If you don't like what we're doing, do something else instead on behalf of what your interests are and how you see yourself fitting into a much broader social struggle for justice, liberty, and an end to oppression.
February 4, 2009 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JordanRoberts (anonymous) says...
Dave, I don't deny who you or the people you organize with are. I simply pointed out some of the hypocrasies in the march's behavior that I find harmful to the community, and why those hypocrasies will render actions like this to be ineffective. I have not said anything about falling within the confines of the law-- the greatest social changes are brought from events outside the law, but when one offends and destroys property of the people that also see their lives in this "context" you speak of, you alienate the very people who are on your side in this social struggle. Or did only the will and pains and hardships of those 50 people matter? Also, I was not speaking only to you, but to those responsible. Please do not assume to answer for the actions or ideas of people that may or may not be many things.
February 4, 2009 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
Jordan,I was only answering for myself. That's why most of my statements included the word "I". Another thing to be completely clear about, no property of any individual was targeted in any way that I know of. I've seen spraypaint on banks and other private institutions like that. I most certainly don't know of any other properties being targeted in any way. I also would think those actions were ineffective and probably counter to most of what I believe to be effective tactics.As far as offending people... That may have happened, true enough. However, the vast majority of people I encountered on the march were supportive... In fact, I've never seen as many thumbs up from passersby, not at any march no matter how large in this town. Again, this is a personal experience. Also, people joined the march along the entire route, which I feel showed support from random passersby as well.I definitely appreciate your views and agree with a general opinion that if we are doing more to alienate other people like us, then we must rethink our strategies... but I don't agree with your assessment of whether that's what the reality of this march was. All day today I've been running into people that either witnessed it, have read this blog, or knew about the march but couldn't come, and everyone has been supportive. Again, this doesn't speak for all people nor does it even probably speak for the majority of people as my social interactions can be limited by where I spend my time, etc.... but I don't agree that this action was inherently alienating to the people I find affinity of struggle with.
February 4, 2009 at 12:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Snoop (anonymous) says...
Ok I have not been on these blogs for quite some time because I did not want to be mean to any more local liberals here in larryville.So I come back to check out the haps and I find this moronic mess. Is this a joke, I mean seriously folks. Was this blog posting and the pictures of these psychiatric medicine deprived loons some sort of “gotcha” post to stir up the innocent readers here. I thought about posting a salient thought provoking reasonable comment, but it tis clear you don’t want to be serious. Has this blog site degraded that much in the last year or so that this is now what passes for blog posts.This reminds me of those retards walking down Mass St. one beautiful Saturday afternoon hollering “f-Bush f-war.” It’s a freaken circus performance.“When people that are marginalized and exploited come together to attack those that destroy them, it's not pretty or touchy feely or easily pushed into a box that makes many people in higher social situations feel comfortable.”Ooooo that is pretentious psychobabble if I ever heard it.Let’s see I bet after these protesters finished their verbal diarrhea diatribe tour of downtown Lawrence they all hooked up at the Replay to knock down a few PBR’s or contemplated their assault on evil American imperialism between carefully released puffs of smoke.C’mon people stop it; the masses can’t or won’t take you seriously until you are ready to become serious.Forgive me Lord for teasing liberals, I just can’t help myself, LOL!
February 4, 2009 at 12:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
"We're not coopting anyone's suffering."When you invoke Gaza, Greece, and Oakland you are coopting and, worse, oversimplifying the suffering and injustice suffered by others. If that is not your intention, then watch your sloganeering a bit more carefully.Marching is not terrorism. Shouting profanities, vandalizing property owned by your fellow citizens, and starting fires is. Don't let yourself be confused.________________________"...in your post you obviously make an argument that violent responses to behavior that you feel threatens you and the ones you love (kicking our "dumb asses" for scaring your kids) isrational and makes sense. We agree with your logic here, and that's why we took the streets."Lets be clear. I'm not the MAN. If you and your little band of disenfranchised decide to target my family specifically, I will be there for you specifically. I wear my hypocrisy like a badge and I don't need to be forgiven._______________________Please don't refer to my name calling as "just" name calling. My name calling was intentional, heart-felt, and targeted. I stand by it. My anonymity on these blogs is not to avoid responsibility for my words, but for the purposes of not losing my job like you did. If you and some of your friends want to have a beer some time I will be glad to invoke my name calling face to face. Kicking all of your dumb asses was hyperbole. I'm too old to kick even one healthy dumb ass, but I got some mean looks.________________________"The fact is that the majority of Palestinians are involved with resistance on a variety of fronts..."You have no idea what the 'fact' is in Israel. One has to ignore an awful lot to distill this historic and complicated hotbed of Middle Eastern conflict to simple slogans._______________________Maybe my anger toward this "march" is that it undermines many ideas that I actually share. The same way that Hamas undermines the Palestinians, and Al Queda undermines Islam. As an organization, you owe your community - a community that I know you love - a serious apology. Trust is hard won and easily lost.
February 4, 2009 at 1:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
"...it's not pretty or touchy feely or easily pushed into a box that makes many people in higher social situations feel comfortable."And another thing. I'm not in any "higher social situation" than you are. We all have tough times ahead because of the collapse of the financial markets. The credit crisis will resonate through our community in the coming months in ways none of us are prepared for. I would posit that the foundation of the coming hard times lies in the basic human greed that created the false sense of prosperity that is now correcting itself. Intimidating your fellow citizens to express your frustration is an expression of the very same greed.The work your organization has done in this community - Solidarity, the community garden - could have been an opportunity for a leadership role through the hard times coming. Your organization has now not only squandered this opportunity, but has shown that you are no better than the Wall Street thugs that brought us here.
February 4, 2009 at 5:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
Dot dot,No better than the Wall Street thugs? We didn't rob people and taxpayers of billions of dollars. A march took place that left behind a little graffiti on some banks and in which there were three torches for lighting that had debris fall of them. To compare that to what folks did on Wall Street seems like more than just a stretch.If I've lost any chance of you supporting me because I take part in these actions and will continue to do so, then I'm sorry. But, to make the comparisons you're making seems to be a bit extreme in any sense that you look at it.To talk a little bit more about "coopting" people's tragedies, there have been general calls put out by people involved in organizing resistance in Oakland, Gaza, Augusta, and Greece (the places we mentioned in our march) to take actions in solidarity with those people facing repression. In Augusta, the people in that community marched with guns. In Oakland, hundreds rioted and have continued rioting. In Gaza, there's been many instances of armed resistance and very large (thousands of people) demonstrations that turn into riots and attacks on the IDF. In Greece, a general insurrection has occurred. Our actions are quite small and far less violent than what the people who are actually resisting the repression and oppression in these areas are engaged in.Just so we're also clear, my comment about "higher social situation" wasn't necessarily targeted at you at all. I don't know you, so I won't make assumptions about where you are coming from. That was just a general statement I made about the situation I find myself in a lot.I don't think the work we do on a daily basis is in any way squandered. In fact, our free food giveaway on Monday was the biggest yet, serving dozens and dozens of people with fresh produce, bread, dried rice and beans, etc... None of those folks from the homeless or working poor community seemed to think our march somehow made this other work less worthwhile. Nor do my neighbors seem to think that our efforts with our garden is not worthy of support or needed. I think you need to use "I" statements more and stop making such generalized statements that indeed may reflect the feelings of less than a dozen folks that sit on this website, but don't seem to necessarily be shared by the people our projects come into contact with on a daily basis.
February 4, 2009 at 7:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
DU plenty,I am indeed in my twenties. Nailed it. I'm 27. So you might be saying that I'm young and know nothing? I guess I don't really know what you were getting at.I would like to note that we mentioned in our statements we were handing out that: "Of course, we understand that marching is certainly not where movements end; in fact, it may be one of the least effective tactics we know of." So, none of us have any delusions that we are changing the world through this march. I understand and believe, however, that this event was part of a larger strategy and that it succeeded in a lot of ways. We met lots of new people. New folks participated and felt really empowered afterward. We distributed lots of literature to folks who hadn't heard about what was happening in Oakland or Greece or even Gaza. We had fun. I felt better afterward and felt like I got a lot of anger out of my system. I felt like I had more energy to move forward with my other work. I also felt some sense of power that I don't normally feel. Marching in the streets with dozens of friends make you feel good. You should try it. Better than drinking, I swear.It's not like you're changing the world by drinking or going to the bar or watching TV or even making arguments against this march on Lawrence.com. But your argument might be that you never said you were. My argument is that we never said we were changing it by marching either. In the end, it helps contribute to and compliments the work that I do that I really feel is changing the world.
February 4, 2009 at 7:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
Dave,The fact that you are not hearing me at all is likely due to my own inarticultations. Ah well.Rather than banter point by point, let me show some perceptions that I am sure are not exclusive to me.1) Greed. I don't hold much for people who are "frustrated" for being laid off or fired. The underlying sense of entitlement is what I equate to Wall Street greed.2) Arrogance. While you say you are not speaking for others who are suffering, the sloganeering tells another story. Marching in the name of the Palestinians or Oscar Grants family in Lawrence Kansas is coopting their suffering. I am glad you feel better after your march. Case closed.3) Self righteousness. You are right that you have no idea what people are doing. Wouldn't that make it safe to assume that just because someone doesn't join your particular march (or didn't even hear about it until they read this blog) that that doesn't mean they are sitting on their hands watching TV or going to bars or "asleep" as you like to say? People in this town are working to change the world every day. A lot of these people don't have big mouths and don't need press or blogs to validate themselves. A lot of these people are cops and fireman and nurses and teachers and (dare I say it) city commissioners.In the big picture, it doesn't matter whether I agree with your viewpoints or not. But ridiculous connections like suffering in Gaza calls for violence in Lawrence, Kansas belies your inexperience and lack of understanding. And this refusal to learn is what makes you dangerous.
February 4, 2009 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Shelby (anonymous) says...
That's right, Iceman.I *am* dangerous.
February 5, 2009 at 6:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
Dot Dot-Let's go through this point by point yet again.1) There's no greed in being frustrated by being laid off. How is that greed? People need to eat, to support their families. Losing your job is a big deal in this economy. I don't like someone with a bloated sense of entitlement either... but since when are wanting to be able to make a decent living and wanting to be able to survive signs of being greedy? Do you feel like it would be okay to just be fired due to the fact that your rich boss swindled their entire company? Is it greedy to demand what's rightfully yours in the first place? Even those folks that believe that this country was founded upon some sort of freedom agree that folks have an "inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Is that entitlement?2) I don't know whether you're just ignoring what I'm saying or not, but we didn't just pull these causes out of a hat. There have been multiple public calls made by organizations and communities in resistance in both Oakland and Gaza (and Greece and Augusta) to demonstrate physically in solidarity with what's happening in these places. You can't close this case by repeating the same line you've been repeating. People across the world have been asked by people in these places to take actions like the one we took. Actions in other parts of the world have been far more extreme than the actions we took, including demonstrations that turned riotous in nations in Europe and Latin America. It's called "solidarity".
February 5, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
3) I can understand maybe how my post could have been misread to make it seem like I was saying everyone on this board just drink and goes to bars. What I was trying to say, and what I obviously poorly communicated was this: People go out and do things all the time that they do for various reasons. Just because there's a political label attached and just because something may be political in some nature, doesn't mean that the participants expect the same things out of each action they take. There used to be a liberal drinking club in this town that would get together to talk politics and drink. Their idea seemed to be that they could have a public event that people could participate in, that was different than normal events they did, and also advanced the other work they were doing.(It's not like I was a part of it, for the record) Fights used to happen with other patrons of the bars they would attend. No one was publicly defaming this group in the way you have defamed us on this board. I'm not trying to be self righteous. I don't claim to have any answers about anything. I support all the different ways that people struggle each day. However, we're coming from very different perspectives and we analyze the situation we're in in very different ways. So we're going to come to much different conclusions. We can argue this all day, and it's obvious I'm not changing your positions on anything, and that's fine. My goal isn't to convert you to any way of thinking. My goal was to report a story about a march that happened here that received very ridiculous and poorly written coverage in the LJ World. (And unlike the author of the LJ World piece, my name was actually included on this article.)
February 5, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pistachio (anonymous) says...
Dave, perhaps my higher social situation (ha!) is clouding my vision, but I'm not sure I get what the point of this demonstration was. Were you protesting the bombing of Gaza, or Wall St. greed, or oppression, or cops, or racism, or social strata, or capitalism? Or all of the above? Was it another one of those "everything sucks!" marches?Sorry, don't get it. And to suggest that anyone participating in your march is "oppressed" is preposterous and self-indulgent. Man, nothing like anarchist ramblings to bring out my inner Republican.
February 5, 2009 at 2:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
daveyjoe (Dave Strano) says...
Pistachio.One of my personal goals throughout my social organizing is to continue to make the connections between all the issues you stated. This march in particular was called to show solidarity with people resisting state violence at the hands of the police and military. However, the links between state violence in a purely physical sense to the state sanctioned violence of predatory capitalist policies are pretty clear. You can't talk about the police without talking about their role in protecting property and power relationships. You can't talk about power relationships without talking about racism. You can't talk about racism without talking about social strata. You can't talk about social strata without.... the links go on and on."Everything sucks" is a simplistic phrase used by folks to try to isolate people that are working to make these connections. I think you've been watching too many movies like PCU. I think many times the lack of being able to make these connections comes from either a myopic worldview, or the lack of time and energy to sit down and think these things through. I would be really curious as to what your definition of oppression is. Members of the march came from diverse backgrounds in which many have faced direct physical violence (sometimes on a regular basis) based on racism and sexism. Most of the folks I know that were marching come from extremely lower class or poor backgrounds. I'm in no way claiming that the daily realities of the folks that marched are the same as those in other countries that face infinitely oppressive realities, but that our struggles may be different but they are tightly linked in a struggle against inherently predatory economic, social, and political conditions that gives advantages to a small group of people in power at the expense of the rest of us.
February 5, 2009 at 4:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pistachio (anonymous) says...
Please explain what you mean by "inherently predatory economic, social and political conditions." Better yet, please explain how I am either a predator or feeding oppression through my everyday activities. Here are some basic facts about me that may inform your evaluation:I have a doctorate. I work for the government. My job is to make sure tax dollars aren't wasted and vulnerable populations are protected. For this work, I make enough to own a home and feed the capitalism machine by buying groceries and eating out from time to time. I vote. I like the cops because they keep humans safe from other humans.So what am I? Predator? Predator accomplice? Prey? Surely I must be one of these seeing as I work for "the man".Also, I should point out that I spend 40-plus hours per week helping hundreds of neglected kids improve their lots in life. Not to brag, but I would bet that I've accomplished more in one week for truly oppressed people than a thousand similar marches ever would. It's one thing to "demonstrate solidarity" and another thing to actually do something about it.
February 5, 2009 at 8:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
You can't talk about the police role in protecting property and power relationships without considering who will be scraping your brain off the street after some idiot mows you down while riding your bike. Everybody chooses which connections to ignore.As far as defamation and connections go, one man's "solidarity" is another man's terrorism. But have you seriously considered what Lech Walesa would have to say about your vagueness of purpose?
February 5, 2009 at 9:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NotBobDole (anonymous) says...
Why are people having such a hard time understanding what the Anarchist Community is trying to do?Systemic violence is the problem. Their actions are a response. Dave, and countless others worldwide, have repeatedly mentioned that protests are not the be all and end all. Heck, the literature and Dave mentioned that they are amongst the LEAST effective. People, however, need to celebrate their actions or else they burn out. This is why so many people protest in Washington, DC. Only the most naive think that Obama (or Bush or Clinton or Bush or Reagan or Carter) are going to listen to them, but knowing that you stand in solidarity with others is important.Protesting against systemic violence makes sense. Opposing portions yet supporting others doesn't. Thoreau put it well - "There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."While I may not agree with all of their tactics or philosophies, I applaud the Lawrence Anarchists for standing up for their principles despite the widespread denunciations.
February 6, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alm77 (anonymous) says...
notbob, our point is the using violence (fires and spraypaint) to fight violence is like, well, you know the cliche. I don't think anyone here has disagreed with "the cause" (the Gaza discussion was civil enough) so much as the irony.
February 6, 2009 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
"There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."My denunciations here are intended to do exactly that. Road to hell and all.
February 6, 2009 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
El_Borak (Bill Hoyt) says...
"Protesting against systemic violence makes sense. Opposing portions yet supporting others doesn't."Of course it does. Only systemic violence has the power to suppress petty violence, therefore the system and its violence absolutely demands support, even while one is justified in protesting its errors. Lawrence has always been a town full of wide-eyed world-savers, so it's enlightening to look into its own history to see an illustration of how systemic violence is necessary. From its founding Lawrence was the home of violence, both of the petty kind and the retributive kind, both giving and receiving. This kind of disorderly violence begets violence and attracts the kind of men given to violence, which is why the Wakarusa War led to the burning of the Free State Hotel, the Redlegs, sacking of Lawrence and finally the wholesale burning of five Missouri counties by those based in Lawrence. The violence which began five or six years before the rest of the country jumped into Civil War made it nearly impossible to live peacefully within 50 miles of the KS/MO border on either side. It was only the order imposed by a functional government that was able to finally put an end to Bleeding Kansas. And that order was not imposed by putting out communiques, it was imposed with guns. Lots of badges and guns and systemic violence.System violence is a necessary evil, because it is only the threat of that violence - coercive, pervasive, monopolistic - that makes order and freedom possible. We live in the historically peaceful place we do only because our government has the power to kill anyone who upsets that order. Those who want to march around yelling "Yo Cops, get out now" ought to try living in a few of the places in the world where the cops had to.
February 6, 2009 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mitzibel (Misty Nuckolls) says...
Dave--I'm leaving my opinions on the march and the politics behind it out of this, but I would like to give you some kudos for sparking one of the most interesting debates I've seen on this site in a long time. Phil owes you a cookie.
February 6, 2009 at 1:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alm77 (anonymous) says...
Wait, wait, wait. Bill, are you saying the *system* has violence built into it? I don't see it that way. I can understand that there are "bad cops" and I also understand that there may be a system (sort of a code of brotherhood or something) but do you really think the system itself, the actual, legitimate, on the books system, with it's checks and balances, miranda rights and procedures, prosecutors and defenders, judges and juries, is actually *violent*? It is, after all, the most civilized system there is. No? Educate me.
February 6, 2009 at 11:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
El_Borak (Bill Hoyt) says...
"It is, after all, the most civilized system there is. No? Educate me."The foundational problem of civilization is how to deal with violence. Violence, the coercion of others toward the will of an individual, makes it impossible for people to live in peace. And there is nothing stronger than violence, it trumps logic, religion, morality, love, and conscience. Violence determines how existing riches are distributed even as it makes the creation of wealth impossible. After all, who can operate a mine or a store or a factory or even a garden, in the presence of violence? One violent man can destroy all that, and there is no way to stop it but through superior violence. So if you wish to live in peace, you have to be able to physically stop the violence of those who would take what it is that you are building. You must use force to stop plunder. That is why people band together for protection, they create government to protect themselves from violence. But to do so, they must cede to government the power to impose (defensive, in the best case) violence on their behalf. They give government the power to physically constrain or kill people who impose their will on others through violence. Peace then, is not simply the absence of violence, but the suppression of small violence through the recognition of a larger violence. If you rob old ladies at knifepoint, you go to jail. You will not be asked, but forced. Violence will be applied to you to make you comply. In this way old ladies can be safe, but is is not because everyone is convinced that they ought to be safe. In places where people think they will not be caught, old ladies are not safe.Of course, that causes a conundrum, because government is run by men, men who are as susceptible to the temptations of plunder via violence as any other men*. That is where "checks and balances, miranda rights and procedures, prosecutors and defenders, judges and juries" come in; they are society's way of limiting the violence done by governments to the very men who entrust it with their protection. They are a way of limiting the ability of an individual, under the cover of government, from misusing that violence. Violence - the ability to impose a will through coercion - underlies society itself. It is the teeth of the law. Without it, there could be no "most civilized system there is," because without the order that can only exist under monopolized, controlled violence, there could be no system at all.* Jefferson once said of judges that they are as honorable as other men, but no more so. And in modern history most people who have been killed have been killed by their own governments.
February 7, 2009 at 12:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alm77 (anonymous) says...
I guess I just never thought of the measures taken by officers to capture a suspect as "violence". Procedurally, the violence is kept to a minimum. I do see what you're saying, it's just the terminology that gets me.
February 7, 2009 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
El_Borak (Bill Hoyt) says...
Terminology is definitely a problem, and perhaps "coercion" would be a better word, or at least a less inflammatory one. But I don't think the word we apply to the act reflects the act, it only reflects our perception of it. For if one cop shoots a man who has taken children in a grade school hostage and another shoots a man for carrying a banner down Massachusetts Street, in each case the act is the same - deadly force inflicted by a representative of the state upon an individual. But the reason for which it is taken differs. We applaud the former - the application of violence to suppress violence or potential violence - and abhor the latter.That is one reason why I am a libertarian and not an anarchist. The anarchist abhors state violence and the police as philosophical constructs, he wishes to do away with all forms of "official" coercion, power, and violence - and therefore wishes away the most powerful protecting principle humans have, the ability to delegate responsibility for their physical protection to specialists.
February 7, 2009 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
md_pinks (anonymous) says...
@ BillJust...wow. Always dropping in with a nugget of wisdom.@ DaveJust because some people refuse to understand in anyway what you're doing, keep it going. While I may not agree with everything you do, I do understand where you're coming from. It's amazing to witness this blog and watch you stand still in your beliefs while other push theirs onto you, even threatening violence.@ DotAre you not bringing "terrorism lite" to this blog with this: "Please don't refer to my name calling as "just" name calling. My name calling was intentional, heart-felt, and targeted. I stand by it."Also, bravo for being Dave's yin to his yang. Just try not to be as hostile...I believe your hatred for that march is blinding you from understanding his point of view, and making it difficult for us to understand yours (other than the obvious anger towards anyone exposing your children to curse words and acts of vandalism).
February 7, 2009 at 3:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
"notbob, our point is the using violence (fires and spraypaint) to fight violence is like, well, you know the cliche."-alm77I must be missing something! When did spraypaint or for that matter burning anything but a living thing become violence? Destructive? Maybe. But violence seems a tad bit (and I really mean completely) ridiculous. So, let me get this straight cop shoots an unarmed and restrained man in the back, mot violent just an accident. I make a stencil and spray paint it an alley and I am violent. We must be using different dictionaries or something. In the same thread where people are debating whether "the system" is violent. "The system" that gives us years of US war or support of war lords for market and capital interest. "The system" that lets people freeze in their beds or on the streets because they don't have the money to pay for basic human needs. "The system" that incarcerates over 2 million people in this country, meaning more than one in every hundred adults.How can anyone question whether "the system" is violent or not. People on here are calling marchers with spray paint terrorists with no hint of irony. If I am a terrorist to the mass public than I guess I am good company. John Brown, Thomas Paine, Malcolm X, Emma Goldman all the terrorist of their days. I am not them and don't want to be in the spot light that they were in but I do know that for every one of them there were thousands of the behind the scenes people like me.By the way Dave did you see that the cop that shot Grant got out on bail today? He was found in another state and yet apparently he is not seen as a flight risk. And where the hell did that $300,000 come from to pay the ten percent of his 3million dollar bail?http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022803016.htmlhttp://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html
February 7, 2009 at 6:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
delta (anonymous) says...
"In the same thread where people are debating whether "the system" is violent. "The system" that gives us years of US war or support of war lords for market and capital interest. "The system" that lets people freeze in their beds or on the streets because they don't have the money to pay for basic human needs. "The system" that incarcerates over 2 million people in this country, meaning more than one in every hundred adults.How can anyone question whether "the system" is violent or not."Without going into how ludicrous it is (especially coming from a self-proclaimed libertarian) to say that the government is "violent" because it doesn't have the means to help pay everyone's heating bill, I think this debate about the "inherent violence of the system" is silly. Yes, sometimes the government uses force. That's a given in any government that wants to be effective in protecting its citizens. The point I think people are trying to make is that it's dramatic and polemical to use the word "violence" to refer to the justified use of governmental force to do things like protect citizens from a murderer. By the way, the government might have more funds to help those freezing people if they didn't have to clean up burning debris and spraypaint after a melodramatic anarchist rally protesting a grab bag of unrelated events, which apparently wasn't meant to change anything but rather was a way of "feeling empowered", "getting a lot of anger out", and "feeling good" (Dave's words, not mine). I don't usually go yelling through the streets telling cops I don't know that they make my life miserable when I need to get anger out and feel good, but to each his own I guess.
February 7, 2009 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
alm77 (anonymous) says...
anarchist, I think the effect, and it's the desired one, is fear. If I had been there watching these actions, I would not have felt safe. Thus, these acts, to the reasonable observer are violent. I would not and do not have these same feelings for political displays that do not include these acts of intentional destruction.
February 7, 2009 at 10:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justdweezil (anonymous) says...
When anyone says that they do something destructive because it feels good or makes them feel better (or even if that's the case and they don't admit it), I think we all can agree that they're a spoiled, stupid brat causing mayhem for their own masturbatory pleasure.Why is this different when anarchists do it? Why is destructive masturbation alright if you pretend it is for something political? Despite the intentions of many of history's anarchists, this generation seems to be in it for the kicks. We're screwed when the only reason people get "politically involved" is for the rush.To I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST:What meaningful difference is there between destruction and violence when you VIOLATE the well-being of another person by destroying their property (which is time, effort, etc...)? You end up giving a bad name to "radicals" and "anarchists" by showing their lack of respect and political discipline. You will get nothing done and anyone hurt people and make their lives harder in the process. This would normally convince anyone else to change their plans so they can reach their goal of helping people, but your goal is actually the political masturbation I described above. Enjoy getting your rocks off, you are no better than the state.
February 7, 2009 at 10:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
delta (anonymous) says...
*self-proclaimed anarchist
February 7, 2009 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justdweezil (anonymous) says...
You will get nothing done **but** make peoples' lives harder in the process.
February 7, 2009 at 11:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
(1)"anarchist, I think the effect, and it's the desired one, is fear."How arrogant of you to assume you know my desires. The reasons that people take these actions are theirs and are as numerous as the people on the street that night. I was not at this march because I was working but I have taken part in similar actions for a variety of reasons and none of them was to strike fear into the public at large. Only those who carry out or defend actions such as police brutality, state oppression and the like are the target of that intimidation and if you are in the that category than I don't care how you feel. "justified use of governmental force to do things like protect citizens from a murderer"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVsncZ7K584Oh I see. Your right the police in this video did us all a favor. "What meaningful difference is there between destruction and violence when you VIOLATE the well-being of another person by destroying their property (which is time, effort, etc...)?"I think there is a big difference between destroying property, particularly those thing used in the furtherance of oppression such as weapons, vehicles, buildings, whatever.... compared to attacking a person physically. Again to compare me spray painting even on city hall to the actual violence in the video above is pure insanity.
February 7, 2009 at 11:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
(2)"to say that the government is "violent" because it doesn't have the means to help pay everyone's heating bill"That is not at all my argument. I argue that the system that we live under makes it impossible to make any other choice. When people go out and live on their own and try and fend for themselves there is no place left to do it. All land is owned by someone if you lost your home tonight were would you go to stay warm and sleep? Sleeping in your car is an option for some but not most and is illegal. Sleeping on the streets is illegal, making camps on unused land is illegal. If you had no money were would you go tonight? The drop in holds like 30 people there are an estimated 200 homeless people in Lawrence. Do the math. But there are empty unused buildings all over that could protect people from the elements. Alas, they are owned by people who let them sit empty for years at a time. That is why I blame the system for homeless, homelessness is a market concept not a government problem. "spoiled, stupid brat causing mayhem for their own masturbatory pleasure."I am from a working/poor single mother family. I have had a job since I was 13 when I started working in the auto shop down the street from my house in Phoenix. I took a couple of years of community college until I found my best friend was murdered and I moved to Kansas out fear and to make sure that the person I am with was safe. After moving here and having to leave everything I had behind I can't afford to go back to school and have been working to save up money. I give up large chunks of my summer to volunteer at youth camps. http://www.diversitykansas.org/ You don't know sh*t about me so stop trying to attack me and counter what I am saying,Or Shut your F*cking mouth(*self-proclaimed) anarchistaren't we all? What does that even mean?
February 7, 2009 at 11:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
justdweezil (anonymous) says...You will get nothing done **but** make peoples' lives harder in the processI have been loaning the car I just bought to a family I know for 2 months so they don't loses there jobs, I fix peoples computers for them free of charge just about everyday. I help with a peer counseling program and do a million other community related things. I also do spray paint art and advocate openly for resistance against the state and capital. Your right I will never do anything. Don't feed me the bullsh*t about violence begets violence if anyone really believed that you would see prison guards and military personnel, wife abusers and slum lords, and anyone that tries to evict a family out of their home dieing like the plague. What are you all reading that you think that Gandhi was the only one doing anything against the British? There was tons of militant resistance against the British and yet you spout Gandhi like he is the messiah.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movementMartin Luther King Jr. is spouted out as the greatest thing since creation and he talks all about state violence:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTgpMVFMOEYand "something is wrong with capitalism" and claimed, "There must be a better distribution of wealth, and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism."MLKhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80Bsw0UG-Ugo to 7:39 and hear him talk about his stance on state violence in Vietnam. I think you all might have forgotten what the man actually said.
February 8, 2009 at 12:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
MD,"Are you not bringing "terrorism lite" to this blog with this: "Please don't refer to my name calling as "just" name calling. My name calling was intentional, heart-felt, and targeted. I stand by it."If there is no distinction between commenting on a blog specifically written on this subject and vandalizing Lawrence for vague reasons then I'll own it.______________________"...I believe your hatred for that march is blinding you from understanding his point of view, and making it difficult for us to understand yours (other than the obvious anger towards anyone exposing your children to curse words and acts of vandalism)."Well, it wasn't a march. I love a good march. What I have complete disdain for is people who are so profoundly lost in their own arrogance that they actually believe they have a right to vandalize their city and then brag about how good they feel after.______________________Anyway.My initial anger toward this whole thing is based on Dave's blog and photos. His description of the event, apparently, was meant to impress: "The marchers *took over* Kentucky Street...with large banners, torches and drums.""Police tried to order the marchers from the streets at various points, but were *greeted with hostility* each time.""Marchers broke off at several points and *left spray painted messages about the police* and state violence *along side streets and buildings* on the route.""Kentucky street remained closed for at least a half an hour after the marchers left that street, as fire crews *responded to burning debris* in the road."Turns out through reading Dave's comments that it wasn't all that.Since then, I've heard no other mention. I searched on LJW for any article at all, and didn't find one. So it turns out my name calling is as unfounded as the contrived drama of this blog. Goes to show what a little propaganda can cause. And yes, my drawing parallels to real terrorism also turns out to be a bit off based because Al Queda and Hamas are far more expert at this manipulation of public perception than the the local anarchists will ever be.Fool me once, Dave, shame on you. I'll be prepared with the appropriate level of attention next time.
February 8, 2009 at 12:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
delta (anonymous) says...
@I AM AN ANARCHISTno one claimed that the police never use excessive force, dude. I don't know where you got that. You're not addressing the point. Are some of them bad people? yes. Are all of them bad people? of course not, and if they use an appropriate amount of force at the appropriate time, with the adequate measures to ensure peoples' rights, most of us, albeit probably with the exception of anarchists, would say it is justified for the cops to use force to protect other people from a muderer."I am from a working/poor single mother family. I have had a job since I was 13 when I started working in the auto shop down the street from my house in Phoenix...."What's with all the diatribes about being more working-class than thou on this blog? The fact that you think "spoiled" necessarily refers to socio-economic status is pretty clear evidence of being obsessed with making connections about class that aren't there. I think Justdweezil meant "spoiled" in the sense that if this march had happened in the vast majority of countries in the world, the government would have sent the police to beat everyone down and suppress any expression of dissent. You are lucky enough to live in a country where you have the right to say this stuff about the cops, nevertheless have them clean up after your messes. By whining about how oppressed you are in progressive Lawrence, Kansas (a city which could, by the way, easily be classified as a democratic-socialist) you come across as spoiled.And after ranting about how people are assuming things about you, you are really making an unfounded leap by claiming these prior posts indicate some sort of pacifism your critics' behalf. No one has made a claim about the use of violence in other protest situations, and no one made a claim that you may do other volunteer work that helps a lot of people, I think they're just saying this particular instance of destruction was silly and juvenile. By the way, I've read some Zinn and Chomsky and Parenti in my time, man, so you can skip the "educate the ignorant capitalist about resistance" speech
February 8, 2009 at 2:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justdweezil (anonymous) says...
Now why aren't I surprised an anarchist hasn't a clue what he's saying? Let's get right into this..."I have been loaning the car I just bought to a family I know for 2 months...etc."Well that sure is swell! So why would you go around fucking up other families' stuff and in the name of anarchism and "freedom"? Breaking sh!t isn't going to change the world, but helping people will. Did you seriously think I was ripping on HELPING people, rather than the violent (or destructive; whatever) protest? Be real, man. If the best you can do is deliberately misconstrue my message then you're reaffirming my point!"Don't feed me the bullsh*t about violence begets violence."Oh, was that my second point? How about I spell it out for you in clearer words: needless, foolish, dumb-ass, masturbatory violence DOES beget violence. Do you disagree with that? In fact, are you not implicitly recognizing that there is sometimes NECESSARY violence, perhaps even on the part of society? Or, oh gee f*cking golly, the state? You really dug yourself a hole here, anarchist.I haven't a clue what you're saying with this MLK stuff. I take it you more than likely were misunderstanding my point (deliberately OR accidentally; neither would surprise me). MLK did not support needless violence. There is a time for resistance, and there are times to use force. Using it in cases like these just gives the (increasingly true) impression that you guys are in the streets just waiting to get your rocks off with an excuse to destroy things. Save the violence for when we need it; otherwise you sully the power of an important tool.
February 8, 2009 at 2:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
If you have read something worth while why not bring it to the discussion and quote a source.We are not talking about police killing a murderer we are talking about police killing a restrained unarmed man."Procedurally, the violence is kept to a minimum."\""violence" to refer to the justified use of governmental force to do things like protect citizens from a murderer."'no one claimed that the police never use excessive force, dude."The difference is that I see police as always being excessive because I see the police as having no right of authority in the first place. Also what it with always evoking this unknown murderer as if people only don't murder each other because police exist. stats show that the threat of prosecution does little to stop murder and that capital punishment does nothing. People bring up the cops stopping murders as if every cop just runs around doing that all day. Most cops don't take a homicide call their entire career so why do people always throw that out as some sort of legitimacy?As for my class and "spoiled" status I have had enough discussions with people in this town to know that "spoiled" means KU student, trust-fund activist, whatever... if this is not what was meant than I apologize but the implication seems familiar. Much like:"I don't know how old you are, Dave, but I would have to posit that you're in your 20's."...is the same you are young and don't know shit, you are naive mentality."By whining about how oppressed you are in progressive Lawrence, Kansas..."Don't put words in my mouth, I never said I was oppressed and recognize the amount of safety and security I have here as opposed to most other places including Phoenix. "making an unfounded leap by claiming these prior posts indicate some sort of pacifism your critics' behalf."My other post were mostly pertaining to the role of state violence and system inherent violence and were refutations of the assertion "justified use of governmental force"(yours) is ever just or justified. or that-"System violence is a necessary evil, because it is only the threat of that violence - coercive, pervasive, monopolistic - that makes order and freedom possible." And I used MLK because he is champion by the don't break stuff, property destruction is violence crowd that I decided to head it off before it could start. Premature? maybe but the point is the same whoever I quote. The State and capital are the largest contributors/reasons for violence.
February 8, 2009 at 3:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
justdweezil:"in fact, are you not implicitly recognizing that there is sometimes NECESSARY violence, perhaps even on the part of society?" Yes of course but society and state are different. I envision a society in which we decide collectively and individually what violence is called for and what is not. Not a state that has it's own agenda and uses my safety as a way to legitimize itself. "So why would you go around fucking up other families' stuff..." I have not participated in or defend any action in which a persons livelyhood was destroyed but spray painting walls or attacking state property is not the same thing. If people were breaking windows out of houses I would attempt to stop them, If they were slashing tires on army Humvees I would not. Maybe I missed Dave's post about going and "fucking up other families' stuff". If I did... Dave, shame on you. "Save the violence for when we need it" As I have already stated I don't think violence was done that night, I see no mention of it in the article. "needless, foolish, dumb-ass, masturbatory violence DOES beget violence."I have to be honest that I don't ever really see this kind of violence that you describe here. All the violence I have seen has been reasoned (maybe not well reasoned at times but reasoned all the same). The State uses violence to impose it's "rule of law", capitalists uses violence to open up markets and continue capital expansion. Dissidents use violence to fight against perceived coercion... and so on. but needless, foolish, dumb-ass, masturbatory violence I don't recall maybe you could explain what you see in the march that fits this description. I myself see a group of people who were informed about issues and too to the streets to express their feelings.
February 8, 2009 at 4:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
*self-proclaimed anarchistAgain What does that even mean? People always say this and it so stupid. Of course I am a *self-proclaimed anarchist I can't be a *friend-proclaimed anarchist or 8Forum-proclaimed anarchist. Doesn't calling myself I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST imply that I am a *self-proclaim ed anarchist?No Shit, and I am not implying anything but the first time I heard this said was in the no-spin-zone o'rielly show. I have seen it on LJworld and it makes on fucking sense. Does that make people *self proclaimed democrats.
February 8, 2009 at 4:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
To be honest I am just posting at this point because I heard that Lawrence.com pays bloggers if they have a certain amount of comments and we anarchists are a broke bunch.
February 8, 2009 at 4:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justdweezil (anonymous) says...
"Yes of course but society and state are different. I envision a society in which we decide collectively and individually what violence is called for and what is not."And I envision a state where we all have magic carpets, rainbows, and cotton candy. I don't know whether you've ever studied political science or game theory (for some reason I'm willing to bet you haven't) but the society you "envision" is impossible. How can people with different interests, needs, goals -- even visions -- cooperate to the degree you describe? Some people want the environment handled one way, and industry another, often in ways that are mutually exclusive. What some people consider destruction others consider creation. What some people consider rights, others consider abomination. Your naivete is no excuse for claiming THAT as a distinction between 'state and society', whether or not there is a meaningful difference."If people were breaking windows out of houses I would attempt to stop them, If they were slashing tires on army Humvees I would not."Army Humvees are paid for by the American taxpayer -- the same families you are fighting to save. Those Humvees will always be built whether you care for it or not. Destroying Humvees will neither slow their creation or halt the waste in resources nor prevent the state from "oppressing" anyone. In fact, it will probably make it worse since those destructive acts motivate significant parts of society to react AGAINST wanton destruction. Are you beginning to understand?"I have to be honest that I don't ever really see this kind of violence that you describe here. All the violence I have seen has been reasoned."This reveals your profoundly low standards of justification. You see a group of people who are informed. I see a group of people who are ignorant of basic political, philosophical, psychological, and economic models that describe interaction between business, governments, and the public. You see people using violence to "make a difference." I see people who are incurring unnecessary costs on their community for little to no tangible gains, when more progress (at a lower cost) could be earned through different avenues. You see "the State" imposing it's "rule of law," and I see corrupt individuals without sufficient checks and oversight.
February 8, 2009 at 4:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justdweezil (anonymous) says...
(continued)...corrupt individuals without sufficient checks and oversight.The state tends to be corrupt. Strongly. However, this does not justify claims that police have no right to impose supervised force against the public in certain circumstances. There will always be corrupt individuals -- in politics, government, business -- everywhere there is power. The project we should then engage in is to check the power and the properties that dispose it to corruption. This does NOT mean we should try to abolish all authority. We do not dispose of our hands because they can choke as easily as they can build. Power is a necessary evil that we must control and use to our benefit with deliberation and consideration.Anarchism is a half-thought farted from minds easily enthralled by vision without substance.
February 8, 2009 at 4:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
I like how you cut out the rest of my statement and then argued as if I said violence is always justified the missing part is"(maybe not well reasoned at times but reasoned all the same)."-meI am not giving justification for all violence. I obviously don't think any state violence is justified but I went on to say that it is well reasoned and that it is not as you put it"needless, foolish, dumb-ass, masturbatory violence". All the violence that I have seen is reasoned and planned out with a purpose."The state tends to be corrupt. Strongly. However, this does not justify claims that police have no right to impose supervised force against the public in certain circumstances."I think that is exactly what it means."Army Humvees are paid for by the American taxpayer." So that makes it the same as "fucking up other families stuff"? Hardly, I would say that those actions are an attempt (given the size and strength of the military it is often a futile attempt) to save families from getting their stuff fucked up.
February 8, 2009 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
"...and we anarchists are a broke bunch."Ahhh. A whiff of honesty. The "march" and the hyperbole of this post was meant to up your pledges to pay your rent.Ching goes the silver.
February 8, 2009 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_AM_AN_ANARCHIST (anonymous) says...
Dude it was a joke. Lame.
February 8, 2009 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DOTDOT (anonymous) says...
A "self proclaimed" joke.Dude.
February 8, 2009 at 9:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justdweezil (anonymous) says...
Duplenty just hit me with a breath of fresh air.
February 9, 2009 at 2:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )